Are the top dogs in Schutzhund very difficult to handle? Reading lots of web sites and books, they all say that a Schutzhund dog makes the best pet because it is so confident and calm and well trained. I believe that, but are the top dogs so driven, so full of energy and toughness that only the best handlers can train them?

The top sport dogs tend to be 7-8 dogs on a scale of 1-10. I've never seen a ten.
The schutzhund dog does make a great pet, go back and read Max von Stephanitz book, which is a must for the SchH and GSD enthusiast. Read it and see how far off track we have gotten, where beauty is placed above work and health.
Now to answer the above question from another thread. The very best schutzhund dogs seldom are the very best dogs to breed to. A very few people have the understanding of the dogs which are top end in the character scale. Some dogs when allowed as youngsters to control their situation can become difficult to handle. Some are hard as nails (which means they are resiliant to duress, they recover very quickly and negative experiences are very minor issues for them) and take excellent training to maintain let alone be competietive. These are the dogs that if they can be brought to the top level will receive the best critiques from the best judges, and subsequently be bred.
Since the extremes breed the norm, we cannot allow the 7-8 dogs to be bred exclusively or even in the majority since they would breed towards the norm and push trhe normal back down the ladder to the 5-6 dog. This is what has happened to the show line dogs. They breed to the 9 dog in looks but not 9 's in drive and hardness and fighting instinct. This has pushed the population of beauty dogs into a lower norm than the working line dogs which are consistantly bred to very hard dogs. It is the highly driven and very hard dog that we must seek out to breed to, not the medium dog that is vastly represented in the high points.
These traits do not mean that the dog is rank, but couple a little rank with all that drive and hardness and it can take experience to deal with it. A little rank in the 7 dog is easy to overcome even for most novices.
So, to produce litters with a 9 dog, a couple of 7-8 dogs and some 6-5's you must breed to the 9-10 dog. If we wish to have a litter with a 7 dog a couple 5-6 dogs and other falling into the 2-4 range (useless critters that cannot perform work, and usually are even problems as pets) then we would always breed the medium dog to the medium dog.

Great post. This is one of the best explantions of breeding that I have read!

I'm going to agree with you there. It is a great breeding explantion, thanks Kevin!

Kevin,

I am curious about something. Do you believe that the 9-10 dogs are not capable of functioning in public? What I mean is that many of the dogs I see are treated like they are going to go off at any second. People are told not to go near them, often they are kept in muzzles at all times in public (except when they are in the car/crate). In the past I have worked with some pretty hard dogs, and didn't feel like any of them were a danger, unless provoked.

In watching the training and handleing of some of the dogs I have been seening I get two impressions. First, the handlers prefer the dogs to be this way. They don't want the dog to be social at all. There seems to be a belief that the dog can't be social and safe, and still perform. Second that they invest a lot of time in making the dog overly suspicious of even neutral strangers. It seems that there is a belief that this is the only way the dog can compete.

This phenemonon seems to be some what cyclic. I remember a time when dogs with any bite training were considered too dangerous to have any interactions with people. Then as time went by the dogs were gradually trained and socialized in a different manner and the dogs were more stable and safer after being trained. Now the attitude seems to be reverting to the previous attitude that if the dog is any good, it has to be extreamly suspicious all the time and can't be social. As an example the idea many trainers have that if the dog is to be protection trained, it shouldn't ever be petted by anyone other than the handler and immediate family. It seems to be a point of pride that the dog is dangerous.

I should have read Kevin's post before becoming a father, for those who don't know her, my wife is the 10 and I fear for the future of our children.

A sad fact for the German Shepherddog is that the 9-10 dogs really never get many breedings as they are normally not the popular winners. I have seen many good males that people would not breed to becasue they choose to breed to a dog that was scoring well.
Another issue is that when choosing a stud dog, it is nice to know the history of the dog. Take Benhard's dog for example. Looking at him on a video you would think that he is a great dog, that really is just balanced with no real rank issue. Looks can be decieving!
There is a dog in Germany that was bred many times. He himself was not a rank dog, but could take corrections and had nice drive. He produced many nice dogs. Orry produced many good dogs. Does anyone know anything about his temperment? But when you look at it, there is alot of truth to what Kevin stated, look at Tommy Riesmowald (Spelling) Kim Wersufer,Ron vom haus Bernhard Mader; all tough dogs that produced well. There are many more that I am sure would be great producers but as they were not titled they did not get any breedings. Look at Ed's Otis. Great dog from what Ihere, but he is not a top schutzhund dog, so he never got many breedings before Ed got him,a t least none that I am aware of. I had never heard of the dog before. Now he is a known stud. What a shame there are more out there like him that will never be used.

A sad fact for the German Shepherddog is that the 9-10 dogs really never get many breedings as they are normally not the popular winners. I have seen many good males that people would not breed to becasue they choose to breed to a dog that was scoring well.
Another issue is that when choosing a stud dog, it is nice to know the history of the dog. Take Benhard's dog for example. Looking at him on a video you would think that he is a great dog, that really is just balanced with no real rank issue. Looks can be decieving!
There is a dog in Germany that was bred many times. He himself was not a rank dog, but could take corrections and had nice drive. He produced many nice dogs. Orry produced many good dogs. Does anyone know anything about his temperment? But when you look at it, there is alot of truth to what Kevin stated, look at Tommy Riesmowald (Spelling) Kim Wersufer,Ron vom haus Bernhard Mader; all tough dogs that produced well. There are many more that I am sure would be great producers but as they were not titled they did not get any breedings. Look at Ed's Otis. Great dog from what Ihere, but he is not a top schutzhund dog, so he never got many breedings before Ed got him,a t least none that I am aware of. I had never heard of the dog before. Now he is a known stud. What a shame there are more out there like him that will never be used. What a shame Bernard's dog has never been used. Does anyone know why?

There area couple of theories on this. I believe Ed is the one who told me this...it follows on what Kevin was saying. To get the extreme you have to breed the extreme.

Like Kevin was saying you have to have a 9 to breed to, to get maybe 1-9 a couple 7/8's and so forth. The problem is most people can't handle a 9 so they are afraid to breed to it.IMO

For the most part people who can handle a 9 aren't big Schutzhund people(again IMO). If the dog doesn't get on the field people don't know about him. Which is sad. Kevin's CJ is a great dog...how many people know about him? I have a 9 also(as graded by Bernhard Flinks) in Rocky. How many people know about him? Otis...as was mentioned in an earlier post, people did not know about him till Ed got him. Even though people in the SchH circles knew about Olive.

Is a 9 dog more desirable as a PSD than a Schutzhund dog?

I can't speak for everyone...however, a 9 is more desirable for me!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I personally would not own anything lower than an 8. Anything lower someone else can play with. Not that they aren't good dogs. Just not for me.