Hi,

I just got done reading Der SchH, and I have a couple questions. I was wondering if there is any merit for a schH dog to do defensive agiation with a muzzle on, to try to promote defense drive. What I was thing was kinda like the book, helper sneeks up on the dog, gets low, and wide, acting aggresively towards the dog, when dog acts defensive runs away, and about 10 paces, you let the dog go? Is there any merit in doing thing like that, to try to teach the dog not to just defend prey (the sleeve), but defend it self againt a person.

Also, I kinda got the impression from the book that 'fight drive' is actual not a drive, but rather a dog that acts confidently in def. drive, ie no avoidance, and try so relieve its by making prey. Is that off base?

Robert

Robert wrote
Also, I kinda got the impression from the book that 'FIGHT DRIVE' IS ACTUAL NOT A DRIVE, but rather a dog that acts confidently in def. drive, ie no avoidance, and try so relieve its by making prey. Is that off base?
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I think you are right in how the drives work, reference to Defense drive, but I think Fight Drive is a drive all into its self.

Defense drive from what I've seen and understand is the dogs willness and ability to defend itself and its handler. Sorta like a counter puncher, if a boxer. A subject jumps form around the corner of your house and tries to strike or harm you. The Dog bites him a new a** and the guy runs off. This would be a example of Defense drive.

Fight drive is the willness and ability to bring the fight to the opponent, weather he's threatening or not. More of a offensive boxer fighter. Like a K-9 sent out to apprehend an sitting unaware escapee. Knocks him on his a**, and dares him to move. There Is no defense here just pure fight.

This analogy separates and clears up the two separate drives in my mind. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I would suggest you read this prior post

http://www.leerburg.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=58;t=000008;p=2

where i has been explained quite clearly.
I believe DEFENSE drive is not a healty drive for the dog to be in. Because massive stress and it´s a live and dead situation for the dog.

Fight drive here the dog is not really in a stressfull situation FOR THE DOG.

Although some say a dog eather has fight drive or does not has it. But isn´t it possible that dog´s with massive prey drive can build that fight drive by aging and by letting them win the fight and let them dominate the decoy.

http://www.kringgroepantwerpen.tk

Mikey wrote
I believe DEFENSE drive is not a healty drive for the dog to be in. Because massive stress and it´s a live and die situation for the dog.

Fight drive here the dog is not really in a stressfull situation FOR THE DOG.

Although some say a dog either has fight drive or does not have it. But isn´t it possible that dog´s with massive prey drive can build that fight drive by aging and by letting them win the fight and let them dominate the decoy.

Fight drive here the dog is not really in a stressfull situation FOR THE DOG.

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I agree defense drive is not a pleasant environment for the dog. Nor is it for the handler (In the example I gave) but it exist for a fleeting moment and a strong dog or person that has lived through this experience, as you say been in a life or death situation. After surviving and winning in these sitautions it builds fighting skills and confidence. My short example makes it easy for me to get what I want from a dog in these training situations. There are probably better ways but this is what I have been taught and I understand it. Some prey dogs can't work in defense because of the stresses and they will go into avoidance.

In the fight drive situation no prey dog in my opinion could stand that pressure, of an assaultant really fighting back the dog would fold and go into avoidance. I am talking about a dog just trained in prey. It would be like an amature boxer fighting professional for the first time, he not use to heavy contact.

Of course this is hypothetical no serious trainer would submit a prey dog to this situation, until he has progressed from defense to fight drive. If he can some dogs can't work in defense/fight drive even after winning in prey numerous times.

Mickey
That was an interesting thread, inside that thread was several examples of what I am trying to express of course there where examples that argued the prey dogs can be motivated to defense/fight drive. I agree with this if properly brought up through the channels.

RC wrote ...
From a practicle stand point the problem with this is the dog doesn't learn to bite under the pressure of defense and waits for the prey behavior to bite. By switching to prey you do reward the behaviors associated with the defense, barking and hcakling, but not the bite.

Very inresting thread thanks

In my oppinion deffense is fear. Deffense is an insecure state of which the dog feels a need to deffend itself. I like a nice ballance between prey and deffense. I like for there to be conflict in the bite work, and a small amount of distrust torward the helper.

Andre

The job of a good trainer or helper is to never let the dog get to the point of avoidance. Right when the dog starts feeling stress release the stress with prey motions that makes him revert back to prey drive. Let him back you off or have the sleeze, letting him win. Conditioning him to the stress if this happens, if I do this harder he will run and I will win.

At some point he will grow in confidence and his threshold for this stress will rise and hopefully fight drive will result. The time will come where he welcome this stress with more aggression.

As one of the expert stated in a perfect world all we want to see in a strong dog is Prey and Fight drive, but that is not the world we live in.

Defense in small dosages makes a dog stronger and more confident if he learns how to conquer this stressful situation by winning. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Defense in small dosages makes a dog stronger and more confident if he learns how to conquer this stressful situation by winning

I agree with you one hundred percent on that.

when the dog is in a state of adrenaline or defence it is a chemical state that the adrenaline puts the dog in pure and simple terms .everyone knows you snap the whip to close here comes the adrenaline, you run to fast at the dog here comes the adrenaline.when this adrenaline is stimulated some dogs feel it will switch to fight drive, others feel it they stand their ground and flash teeth others feel it and avoid.in my humble opinion you condition the dog to control the level of adrenaline. common sense techniques that germans have used for a hundred years stress the dog outside of the schutz field in other various ways when the dog is young, cold water heights make him find you in the woods so he must use sense of smell loud noises under surprising situations i think tend to turn this adrenaline valve down. bye bye now

Don A Wrote:

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In the fight drive situation no prey dog in my opinion could stand that pressure, of an assaultant really fighting back the dog would fold and go into avoidance. I am talking about a dog just trained in prey. . But how do you explain some of the French Ring and KNPV dogs? While fight drive can be directed at equipment, some of these dogs just have such a strong desire to get the prey. But they are not really in fight drive, they are holding on for the ride. They are condtioned in prey to withstand the stress, and built up in prey.