Can anyone suggest methods in working the bark and hold WITHOUT using a helper to correct the dog from biting. This would be so much easier if it were a "bite and hold"

What do you think is wrong with using helper corrections?

Where exactly are you in training?

Leerburgs, backyard, mailorder, schutzhund school of hard-knocks.
Why do you ask?

Control at the helper in the B&H is always a handler-dog issue and not a dog-helper issue. The only time the helper gets involved is when the handler cannot control his or her own dog. That handler will never be consistent.

This is strictly an obedience issue with the handler.

The handler has to verbally or if necessary physically correct the dog after a bite - in training this always starts with a NO!!!!! A physical correct is NEVER given without the handler giving a NO !!

The physical stuff is the same old same old - long line - drag line, electric collar. I will never train this without and electric collar.

Ed I agree with you. I don't want my dog to listen to the helper. In our club however there is a strong opinion that handler corrections lead the dog to concentrate more on the handler (look back, turning and even leaving the helper).It won't be easy to make them think a different way. I know that some club member vistit the board and I hope they think it over again.

Alright...... I don't do SchH so this question makes no sense to me at all. If an agitator tried to "correct" my dog in a bark and hold he would be bit. Any aggressive action by the agitator is a reason for the dog to bite. So what would be the purpose, with any dog with any seriousness, of letting the agitator do anything aggressive to the dog. If the dog is looking back at the handler during a Watch, the dog either doesn't have the nerves for the job or the handler is OVER correcting. The agitators job in teaching the watch is 2 pronged, enough to keep the dog's attention on him but not enough to get the dog to bite.

So, out of curiosity, how is an agitator gong to correct the dog without the dog reacting to the threat? If the dog is doing "protection" why would the dog accept a correction from the target of it's aggression?

Because the unability of the handler to keep the dog clean I've seen helper using their knee or if the dog is already in the sleeve they use their flat hand to hit him over the eyes until he let go and only barks. Another 'trick' is to use the stick as a pry bar. Also very loud 'pfui' or 'NO' I've seen in combination with a prong used by the helper. When the dog doesn't follow the 'Aus' command the helper (he has already taken the short lead) gives the correction with the prong. I've heard many times from club member the sentence: Try to keep him clean and don't allow a diry bite. Are there more clubs who practice like this?

FWIW, I've watched Ivan Balabanov teach dogs to be clean in the blind by dropping the sleeve on the ground when the dog is dirty. Game over, handler comes and gets the dog (no correction) and they try again. He calls this "the Ultimate Punishment".

If the dog is the type who would grab the sleeve and run off with it, he stands on the sleeve to keep the dog from doing so. If the dog is the type who would nip the helper, sleeve or no sleeve, he will simply hold the dog away from him by the collar (no correction) until the handler comes and takes the dog away (still no correction). If the dog is the type who would really nail the sleeveless helper, well, I'm not sure what he would do since I never saw that happen. When the dog comes in clean, Ivan gives him a quick bite reward.

I've watched Ivan do this over and over with some dogs, until the lightbulb finally goes off "oh, if I want to bite that sleeve I'd better not nip it first". It works.

Laura

I'm not saying handler corrections are good or bad, VVG just seemed to have a strong opinion about using them, so I asked why.

Richard said: "why would the dog accept a correction from the target of it's aggression?"

When using the prong as correction tool at different stages of the protection routine, you use it on a leash, you use it on a long line, then you can keep a drag leash on when the handler is at a distance and the helper can carefully reach under the dog and give a correction.

I really wonder if the dog knows the difference when it is done "correctly", after he has been conditioned to getting handler corrections under the same circumstances in earlier progressions of training. In the heat of the moment, under the dog's chin, blocked by the sleeve, and the handler giving the normal verbal correction while moving to the dog.

I don't agree with stepping on toes, pinching throats, slapping or hitting, kicking. . .among others.

I have had more success with strong and balanced dogs (also with a handler aggressive dog) using, I guess you could say more positive methods, like the ones Laura explains.