I'm training toward a ScH1 with my first GSD. My dog loves to track and I introduced articles off the track. She will literally pounce on the articles off the track. On the track it's a completely different picture. She doesn't want to down. I believe it is because the value of the track, even without any food except at the articles, is so high for her. Can tracking be too rewarding? At this point, I don't want to have to use force on the articles. I tried scaling back the difficulty of the tracks to make the track less rewarding. We have only been doing straight tracks with 7-10 articles with food only on the articles. This helped a little. She will now down on the articles most of the time, but she is slower than molasses. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Time isn't a major factor since we probably won't trial until next year.

Thanks in advance,

You say you have food on the articles. You also say the dog downs very slow. If the food is ON the article, what is happening on the track. Is the dog getting the food and then downing? If thats the case you need to change the order of events. Teach it off track. I wouldnt put any more food on or under the article if the dog is recognizing what the article is. The dog's reward comes after it downs so the dog puts the rewards with the act of downing.Have the treat in your hand and when the dog downs reach down with the one hand and switch the article and the treat in one smooth motion.

The only thing I would change slightly is that I would leave the article in place and give several individual food treats for being in the down on the article, including another one after I pick it up. This makes the down position a very valuable/desirable position and conditions the dog to stay calm on the down without anticipating a quick restart.

I understand what you are saying Lee but that sounds like teaching the dog a down. I would hope before teaching the dog to down on articles the dog has already got a very solid down, down stay,down in motion. The time to be "teaching" the down is definately not with articles. So hopefully this dog has already got a solid down in any situation.

The high reward value of the down position isn't to teach the down; it's to classically condition a very strong positive association with the down on the article. If the dog LIKES indicating the article cuz great and wonderful things happen there, you're going to get a fast, happy, consistent indication, plus avoid a dog who anticipates the restart by getting antsy after you pick up the article.

JMHO which isn't that much compared to you guys.
The article should be a place the dogs feels content & relaxed. There should be no pressure on the dog here.

I like Lee's method of:
I would leave the article in place and give several individual food treats for being in the down on the article, including another one after I pick it up. This makes the down position a very valuable/desirable position and conditions the dog to stay calm on the down without anticipating a quick restart.

This is what I'm doing with my female who is very independent, yes it's working!!!

Carolyn: What method are you using to teach Articles? Sometimes a little compulsion teaching the Articles gives your dog a safe haven when they do indicate. Then gives PRAISE/ PRAISE and more PRAISE with Treats such as Lee suggest.

What I am saying is what you are describing sounds like "teaching the dog to do a down". What Im saying is that should already be established, a dog that already does a "happy" down also one that actually does a down stay, an actual down stay.The point Im making is it is wise to have already established a concrete down and down stay before you start teaching articles. If you got that established first there is no need to leave the article and supply a constant stream of treats to get your dog to stay there or enjoy staying there.By continualy treating your dog while its down at an article means you are either putting the treat on the article or you are handing the dog the treat. Putting the treat on the article over and over can cause your dog to want to keep fidgeting with the article or if your handing the dog a treat the dog is looking back at you stretching its neck waiting for you to treat it. Id rather the dog not anticipate me handing it a treat on the track. Id rather the dog already have very good down stays and I do the magic trick of turning the article into a treat in a clean slide of the hand and I dont have to worry about the dog staying there because thats something that should have already been taught. You should be able to walk around and do whatever you want and the dog waite till you tell it to track.

David,
I think it goes without saying that a dog should know a "down" command prior to article work. No one suggested otherwise. However, your "regular down" is a command driven exercise, while downing on article is not--i.e. an article becomes the cue to down. From the human point of view it may look the same, but for a dog this is a completely new exercise. I also didn’t see Lee suggesting a constant stream of treats, nor putting treats on the article. I’ve been using the same method for ten years and never had a problem with a dog bothering the article. The only minor difference is that I don’t treat after I pick up an article for the reason you mentioned: "the dog is looking back at you stretching its neck waiting for you to treat it." I usually place a treat a few steps farther up the track to ensure a quick restart.
It's a purely motivational way to teach articles and it works.

Agreed, the dog MUST have a solid down before introducing articles. But that "obedience" down doesn't generalize perfectly to the track; it is very very common to see a dog just like the one in the original post - intent on the track and acting like the article is an inconvenience or an interruption, rather than a desirable place to be. I don't know how else to say it - it's not about teaching how to lay down; it's about conditioning an EMOTIONAL change towards the article.

"She doesn't want to down. I believe it is because the value of the track, even without any food except at the articles, is so high for her."

We're trying to change the dog's attitude towards the article indication, so that not only the track, but also the article, is a cool place to be.

I never put food on the article; it always comes from my hand. All my dogs have offered the behavior of starting to rise off their elbows to meet me halfway for the treat, and they try this regardless of whether the article is still on the ground or not. All you have to do is ignore it or tell them platz. They only get rewarded in the perfect sphinx position, they figure that out in nothing flat. It's no big deal.

Renee, it doesnt"go without saying that a dog should know a down".People are always training their dogs to do a "finished product" without laying the proper foundation.Im pointing out to the orignal poster the importance of a solid down before expecting the dog to do great downs for articles.Having a solid down greatly aides in the training of articles and I was trying to make sure the original poster got that out of my reply.Like Lee said if her/his(sorry Lee I try not to assume) dog starts to raise its elbows anticipating the treat it is easily fixed. It is easily fixed if the dog has a good foundation.For someone with a dog with out a good foundation the training of articles becomes sloppy.