Hi guys, here is a question for all you pros.
I read the PAWS method of assessing a young
dogs (6-18months) prey drive and found it very usefull.
Is their a similiar test that measures fight drive or are there any specific characteristics in a dog that suggests good fight drive?

Fight drive has to be trained into a dog. It results usually from building a strong prey (bitework) foundation in a dog with a high level of prey drive and then carefully taking the dog through beginning, intermediate, and advanced defensive training. If this is done correctly--AND the dog has the right kind of temperament--the dog will begin to enjoy combat and will find that subduing his opponent fulfills a new drive gratification. This is fight drive.

Dogs that are capable of developing fight drive are rare. I have seen very few dogs with fight drive--in fact, only three that I can think of offhand (other trainers on this board have reported similarly). The dog must have the genetics, and must be trained correctly. Are there actual tests for assessing this quality in a very young dog? None that I can think of.

From what I have seen, dogs that are likely to be able to develop fight drive have a) a very strong prey drive; b) steady nerves and a high degree of self-confidence; c) an accessible defensive threshhold, by which I mean that it should not be necessary to strike the dog, etc. to push him into defense. Obviously a dog's defensive threshhold should not be evaluated until after the dog has matured.

I think some of the experienced police K-9 trainers could give you more insight into this than I could, but I hope this helps.

Pete Felknor

Just remembered something. Donn Yarnall (I believe) referred to a scenario used with PSD candidates. A dog is put on a tie-out and confronted by an agitator. A strong-defensive dog will lunge, then back off--i.e. exhibiting classic defensive posturing. A weak-defensive dog will choose flight as the agitator closes. The dog with fight drive will literally PULL at the line and try to close his distance with the agitator; the bark is strong and confident. The message the dog is sending is, "I want to fight you, but I can't unless you come closer!"

I've probably fuddled some of the details, but that is the gist of the test.

Pete Felknor

With dogs who have this "fight drive," how are they affected if they were to lose a fight?

As someone who has done only sport, and NOT police-dog training, I may be talking out of turn here, but...

At least from the sport point of view, the dog ALWAYS wins. As the training progresses he may have to fight longer, and fight harder--but he will always win in the end. Even if the dog does not show the desired behavior in fighting exercises, he will be denied gratification (i.e. the bite) and will be put away. This is not the same as losing.

The point is to teach the dog that through perseverance and determination, he can overcome any agitator or perpetrator. Whereas this may not be true in real life, there is no point--indeed, it would be counterproductive--to teach the dog that losing is a real possibility. The point is for the dog to go into combat with all the confidence he can muster.

Pete Felknor

I'm not sure if the post is still lingering here in cyberland, but there was a long post on Fight Drive. It also covered some of the test, ages, behaviors, etc that I, Lou and Donn have spoke to in PSDs. I know Lou has his version of a stake out test on Dr. P's website. I'm sure he can add the link to this post.
For me it seems unreasonable to test for fight drive in a dog who is less than say 15 - 16 months of age. I would rather test a 18 month to 2 yr old dog. I'd go back and see if you can find the posting on drives and fight drive here on the board. It was a pretty good one.

Which leads me to something I've always wondered about.

How well do dogs that have been seriously injured in a fight (shot for example), recover mentally? I'm assuming that the dog makes a good enough physical recovery to return to work.

I have known several PSDs that have been injured pretty hard by some suspects. Most of them engaged even harder once the suspect hurt them. One dog I know of was shot and returned to duty after his injuries healed without a problem. I think it goes back to the natural ability and selection of the dog. If you pick a dog w/ the correct combat drives, it should not be an issue. A human fighter normally hits back harder after an intentional "low blow" from an opponent. I think the same is said for fight driven dogs.

This "fight drive" intrigues me, being such a rarity. Why is it that schutzhund is used to measure a dogs abilities and breed worthiness, yet the one thing everyone is looking for appears to be more legend that reality?

Why are lesser dogs, without this "drive" being bred? Why don't more of these fight driven dogs exist by now?

Bill--

Not everyone IS looking for fight drive. And some of the animals that are perfectly capable of developing fight drive never do, either because their training doesn't take them there or because their handlers have no interest in developing it (or don't even know, really, what it is). Probably the simplest way of looking at this is that one can do pretty well in Schutzhund without having a dog with fight drive. Remember that 2/3 of the points in a Schutzhund trial come from obedience and tracking anyway. And the only reason most handlers would have to train their Schutzhund dog up to that level (fight drive) is that it presents a flashier picture in some protection exercises. Again, though, as some of the PSD handlers have pointed out, the fight drive grip does not tend to be as full as a prey drive grip. So really, for a Schutzhund trainer it amounts to a lot of extra work (and very intricate work) for points that they may not even get on trial day. Schutzhund training is hard enough anyway.

If the judging at trials changed so as to put a premium on dogs with demonstrable fight drive, then you would begin to see a difference. But that would need to happen first. I can't see the emphasis on a full-mouth grip going away any time soon.

Pete Felknor