I was wondering, do trainers of seeing eye dogs and the like use choke and prong collars? I hear of so many labs that are unruly (perhaps they learned to be this way?) I have to wonder what the seeing eye trainers do. Or do they simply weed out dogs that need (or do they need?) choke/prong collars?

My dogs and I learned obedience using a prong collar. And it works. Yea, sometimes I have to correct my dog and it hurts them a little, but 98% of the time they respect and listen to me.

I love the idea that sweet talking, treats and TLC can accomplish the same goals. Unfortunately I'm not sure that I've seen a HIGH DRIVE dog that has been successfully trained using these methods.

So, what's the skinny? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I live a short distance from a large kennel that breeds and trains seeing eye dogs, all labs. They routinely train their dogs around this area as there are lots of shops traffic, trams etc. The dogs are provided to blind people free of charge. Ill query the next handler I see and get back to you. Does anyone know of any books or web sites that delve into the trainning of guide dogs?

The New Knowledge of Dog Behaviour - by Clarence Paffenberger is a really good book to explain the selection of traits for guide dogs and puppy testing. It has very good descriptions of inbreeding co-efficients etc that are readily understood by the layman. The unruly labs that you hear about are probably not the ones out of
guide dog breeding programs, as I would suspect that like any scope of dog activities where it is necessary to fix certain traits that the dogs are probably pretty linebed/inbred. It is an older book (published 1963) but well worth the read.
ISBN 0-87605-704-0

I wonder if any assistance dog trainers visit this site. I'll take the initiative here and e-mail this to a few of them and see if they'll respond. I think it's a good question.

I spoke to one of the trainers yesterday from the local seeing eye dog school. She had a male black lab on a leash with a normal fur saver sort of collar. I asked about the schools training philosophy. She said yes they do use some compulsion if the dog is wilfully disobedient. She cited as an example if the dog fails to do a automatic sit on comming to the edge of a road whilst walking along the footpath. She added this was only done once it was clear that the dog understood that that was what was required of him. Common sense sort of stuff.

Despite the breeding program they run to produce guide dogs they still have a number of dogs who fail the course. These are rehomed as pets, my brothers neighbours have one.

Hi, Boy, it has been a while since I was on the discussion board. First off the dogs are particularly chosen based on temperament and drive etc... Many are line bred, but some assistance dogs are from the pound. Much of the gentle training is done during puppy raising. When a dog is raised properly, they are imprinted to much of the expected basic commands. Compulsion is necessary for a dog that knows the command and willfully disobeys it. I don't have experience with guide dog training, but have worked with a dog for seizure response, and he has done well but was lacking in the basic socialization when I got him and has subsequently failed out. I now have a 10 week old lab pup that was line bred from a line that has seizure alert and the mom is a certified assistance dog. At 10 weeks she is going into the crate on command, sitting, downing and coming. I am using all the positive training methods and if she gets something that she isn't supposed to have I am using that as an opportunity to teach "out" or "drop it". While food and positive training goes a long way, the dog has to mind and know that you (the handler) are the boss. If compulsion is necessary then it has to be used. JMHO, but remember, I am training for my son, I am not a professional trainer. I relied on the breeder to pick the right dog for me. She is also a professional trainer.

The subject of assistance dogs is a great one. It's a wonderful example of just how capable a dog really is. Not to intermingle threads but when we argue about whether or not a dog can be tought something, or whether or not a dog thinks or can comprehend this or that, stop and think about what a dog does to assist people in wheelchairs or the blind. It's truly amazing what these wonderful animals are capable of learning.

The test for therapy dogs prohibits prong collars, halters, or anything other than a plain collar. And most places of which I'm aware don't allow therapy dogs to work in anything but plain collar, either.

The book Lynn mentioned ( The New Knowledge of Dog Behaviour) is still one of my favorites and I bought it in its first printing in 63.