Has anyone given up on thier VA line dog based upon thier lack of prey drive?

Here is my story:
I'm in a turmoil of emotions here. I just got GSD puppy four weeks ago. I thought I was doing the right thing. I got a 'Western German Working Bloodline'. What a load of crap. Its a VA line dog w/ Schutzhund titled parents. I thought that was a good sign and that meant 'working line'. I didn't know I was so wrong. I'm a begineer with dog sports so I read books etc and felt like I was making a good choice.

I did puppy tests on him and he was a good performer too. But now these things are seeming to be replaced with aloof behavior.
The dog has a huge head, can't walk and starting to look very angular. I paid a lot of money for this dog.


I emailed Ed and he told me that my only hope was to try and start bulding drive NOW. I've been doing it for a few weeks but it doesn't seem like my dog has much drive (he's 12+ weeks now). He likes to bite and he'll chase the pretty w/ a a 3-5 level of prey drive . He doesn't chase a ball and certainly won't bring it back to me if he does chase it. Overall I wouldn't consider him a very high prey drive dog.

Am I expecting to much at a young age? I just see the pups from the working lines so happy and enthusiastic to play. I feel like my pup just doesn't want to these sorts of things. Though his parents are SchH3 I don't think they were easy to train to get there. The breeder suggested that I have a personal trainer get my dog to that level if thats the kind of dog I want (What fun is that!??!).

If anyone thinks I'm over reacting please advise. If anyone has been in my position I would love to hear your story. I've already thought about selling the pup and getting a working line pup ASAP. Has anyone done this? Should I stick it out until six months and ob train the dog and then sell him.

Thanks for all replies.

Hi Chris,

I am owner of an 6 months old showline pup (all dogs in her pedigree are sch/ipo titled, but than again they have to be or pups can't get their papers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) and i too thought that means working dog. Well it does not. But beeing a beginer like you i was told by the people with whome i train now that she is excelent beginners dog (meaning; get her to ipo1 level and most of all train myself). Than get something harder. So, join a club and get your dog to watch,watch and watch some more. That's what my dog was doing for last 2 months. Just don't pressure him.

And it would be a real eye oppener to see a real prey monster or realy hard dog, even more to get a bite on suit from one of those and than ask yourself 'am i ready for that?'.

Funny, I just talked to a man on the phone last week who was in the same boat as you. He didn't seem that unhappy about it but he was under the impression that he had a working line pup when in fact, his pup was out of a recent VA dog.

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The breeder suggested that I have a personal trainer get my dog to that level if that's the kind of dog I want (What fun is that!??!).

The thing to understand here is that show line breeders, (yes even German lines, SchH titled), usually have a totally different goal than people with working lines. A SchH title is something they need in order to show in the ring. So, if they can't get the dog titled, they simply hire someone to do it.
There 'usually' is less emphasis placed on working ability, although a few are claiming they really care about that.

Frankly, IMO, it is deceiving to represent a show line dog as a working line, even if the parents DO have titles. That would be as bad as me telling someone my dogs are capable of going VA at the USA Sieger show or even winning a local show. I know that isn't going to happen, just as well as most show line breeders know their dogs are not going to win the Nationals or are they dogs for someone that really wants to just train in SchH. Excuse my prejudice but it is based on years of experience. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I have worked dogs in SchH for almost 30 years now. I have been a helper for that long as well. There is no doubt that working lines are easier and for me, much more fun to work that show line dogs. Sure, I have seen show lines that do well but those are fewer and much further between than the working line dogs. When conformation is your primary purpose in breeding, that is what you will get in the pups, not pronounced working ability. It really is that simple.

You will have to ask yourself how much time you have and what your goals are. If you want to have fun training, primarily want to train in SchH or you would like to compete in SchH, get a working line pup. If you want to compete in the show ring and have a bit more work for you and your helper, keep your show line. Good luck and I sure hope no one gets upset by my "biased" opinions.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anne,

Your advise is what my gut is telling me. My beagle has way more drive then my GSD. I can see training being a laborious.. I'm feel like I'm getting resent of the dogs lack of will to play.

This is my first GSD. Do you think I should sell my pup and get a working line? Who buys the show lines? I feel like I was a ripped off. The breeder claims to breed West German working lines.

I think I want one of Eds puppies.

Thanks for your posts.

I just bought one of Ed's pups from Xanta and Xando. I am very happy with her. She's only about 14 weeks but I can see she carrys herself real well, is very clear headed and intellegent and is a tough little cookie that has good prey drive.

Here's a site that has some puppy tests:

http://workingdogs.com/doc0036.htm

PS... What do you mean your puppy can't walk?

Well.. he can walk - in fact his gait is very flowing. However, his balance is horrible. It doesn't seem to take much for him to fall over. I'm being very serious. At times its almost seemed like I couldn't walk he was so clumsy. If he's going in a straight line he's fine but if you get him to run around things he doesn't seem to have the agility.

I would demand a full refund + shipping costs from the breeder if they claimed the dogs were working lines and you have it in writing.

A show line breeder did the same thing to me. Claimed that show lines could work and the typical BS. At least I didn't buy one of her overpriced ($2K) coated monorchids and went with a more down to earth breeder (although the result is still the same, pet at best). Auster has prey and food drive but nothing else. She's my black and blonde <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

I'm not sure how I can actually claim anything back from them. They do have a few police dogs out thier litters and the parents were SchH trained. I bet any small claims judge would be convience I got what I paid for - regardless if the police dog was a good patrol dog or if the parents were Schutzhund champions.

I'm honestly convienced that they think thier dogs could do the work as well.

All in all its very frustrating!

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I'm honestly convienced that they think thier dogs could do the work as well.

You're probably correct. I would bet they do think their dogs can work. Maybe they can, we have no way of knowing that. Could be one of those show line dogs that can actually work.

You should also look at the other side of the equation. You will have to ask yourself if you told the breeder exactly what you were intending to do with the puppy. Perhaps they really believed they were giving you what you wanted. Maybe this pup will really turn out to be a nice dog, again, we have no way to know that just yet. Only you know what conversations you had with the breeder. I certainly don't think you should be calling them and accusing them of fraud. I'm not saying you intend to do that but some people are not really clear about what they want to do with their puppy and are angry when they don't get what they want.

You do have some responsibility in the transaction as it sounds like you were an uninformed buyer. Please don't take that personal as I can certainly understand how you could get confused nowadays. There are so many different "types" of GSDs, most new people are confused. However, you do have to consider what you didn't know and how that may have confused things for the breeder, as well as you.

The breeder may well have intended to give you what you wanted. I think there are breeders out there that are comparing their dogs to American lines. Compared to those, yeah, german show lines ARE working lines . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you are finding yourself angry or frustrated with the puppy, it would probably be a good idea to try to place him in a new home. Of course, I am sure you realize, this isn't the puppy's fault. Also, the puppy is quite young. I should have mentioned that in my first post. You certainly cannot tell at this age what he will turn out like.

You need to give this pup a chance. Follow the Flinks method and look for improvement.
Remember that all dogs do not mature the same. If the pup in good general health work with it.

You could have bought a pup from serious working lines and have the same concerns. I have a female with very little ball or toy drive. I use her food drive which is fantastic. She loves to do protection work and comes on the field ready.

Just goes to show you that you can work through most issues if wanting to do so.

"Don't compare your pup to other pups"