I am very curious what the goals are for Rott breeders. What are you trying to produce? For what purpose are your Rotts bred? The following is why I am asking this.

We have several Rott owners that train with us. We have one exceptional male that is working towards his titles. All the others are poor to good dogs in the work and are only interested in passing their BST/VST (I am sorry, I can never remember what this breeding suitability title is called). Most of the conversation is about bloodlines and conformation or ripping apart that excellent working Rott. IF the Rott people are interested in producing working dogs WHY do they breed dogs that only have a BH? If they don't believe in SchH as a working test why don't they come up with one more suited to the breed? From what I have seen (and we have a lot of Rott owners/breeders that train protection with our helper) finding a good working Rott is far far more difficult than finding a good working GSD. IMO this is because Rotts do not have to have a working title to be bred. This is also, IMO, the perfect example of what happens to a breed when working titles are not required for breeding.

OK, I am sure I am about to get flamed.

Lisa-

Since I too train at the same club, I will answer you. First off, not trying to rip anyone's dog apart I think the use of "exceptional working" is a bit strong, for that particular dog IMO.The best Rottweiler currently there training, I could definitely agree too! Anyway, the large majority of the people with Rotts at this club are ALL show people as a primary goal,which is definitely the case of the exceptional dog you are referencing, with a few puppy peddlers for the sole purpose of lining one's pocket. In Germany, the ADRK requires a dog to pass the ZTP, before being allowed to breed along with passing hips,elbows and dentition. In the US with akc you can breed whatever you desire, and this doesn't only pertain to Rottweilers.I personally do not feel that the Rott group there is a good example for the general following of the breed. Although I would be the first to admit that in the Rott world, the VAST majority of participants are conformation driven (SHOW BUFFS) foremost, and for the ones who do train the majority only train to obtain a title simply to boost marketability (word?) of their dog or future puppies! I like the TD of the club very much and share a great deal of the same philosophies when it comes to working dogs as we like the same things in a dog. But, not everyone there shares these views when it comes to training, raising, or producing working dogs, and that is not solely with the Rott people.

Hi Herb, I wondered if that was you when I saw the name. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The ZTP is the survey that requires a SchH title? So it is just in the USA under URC (?) (the one with the AWDF not the AKC one) that allows dogs to be bred with just a BH? I was talking to one of the breeders last night and although he does lean towards the conformation side he at least could tell me why he has bred to certain dogs and what he looks for in a dog.

"Heard" you are thinking of stepping up in the world and getting a GSD. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think it depends on where you are. Some wrking rottweiler people are more serious than others. Some think a BH and BST is enough for a female, some won't settle for less than SchHII. Its pretty uniformed in males that anything less than SchHIII isn't worth breeding to - though on occassion, up-and-coming young stud dogs are bred before achieving their SchH3 when its sure they'll get it and have what it takes.

Which bloodlines you use make a big difference in the working ability of the dog. Some of the most famous Rottweiler studs in History, who produced hundreds of puppies, may have left some good v-rated dogs behind, but don't look for them at the trials. Rick von Burgthan was very much used but it was dogs like Karo vom Schwaiger Wappen who left behind dogs who we're earning top schutzhund scores.

When I become a breeder, I hope to achieve a strong line of Working Bitches, which is what this breed lacks. There are a few breeders who can achieve SchHIII, v-rated bitches but their in Germany, and with the new ADRK rules on tail docking, it makes it difficult to bring them over here and make something of the potential thats there. Good males is not something we're lacking - I can name several off the top of my head who are multiple titled (SchIII, FH, AD, BH, BST, ZTP, etc) on the working field, and go on to become siegers and klubsiegers, etc.

Its not so hard to find a good working rottweiler if you know your bloodlines, and know where to look. It just takes patience and the know-how to weed out the "seedy" breeders.

As said, the ADRK does require working titles to an extent. They grade each litter, (german words, I'm not sure off the top of my head) as being from 2 Korung parents, 2 titled parents, etc etc etc.

While we don't have breed wardens over here, we do have several rottweiler clubs (USRC for example) that give the same gradings and tests as done over in germany.

Rottweiler_Fancier-

Who are the strong working rotts you can name off the top of your head? What are these famous lines you are well versed on? I will tell you this before you answer. I have personally seen the sire of your new young male work and his grand-sire(Matcho), as well as quite a few more supposedly powerhouses as I did live in Germany for almost 10 years. I would appreciate if you can answer with personal knowledge or proven factual info. Thanks.

OK so the ZTP is all that is required for breeding and the ZTP doesn't require a working title. That was what I was asking in my origional post.

What testing goes on at a ZTP? Why allow just a ZTP and not require all dogs to go through the Körung before breeding? There is quite a jump between the two for the males (no title and then a SchH3). Just curious.

Have a look at Kurt Solquists site fot working rotts. He is a german who moved his whole kennel to the U.S., Orgegon I think, he claims to have titled more rotts to schutzhund titles than any other breeder in the U.S. A guy bought one of his Jennecks dogs out to Australia where it is doing good things at stud. Sorry I cant supply the link, I cant find it, maybe another rott fan has it.

I have translated for German/Austrian judges for a couple or Rottweiler shows. They both included ZTPs. It is basically the same protection routine they do for the Sieger show, heeling to the blind, attack on handler with stick hits and a long bite.

The last one I translated for was, er, quite interesting. They only had 2 dogs entered for the ZTP, and wanted to show the routine with a demo dog. The demo dog came to the blind, showed a lot of unsureness engaging (very slow and hesitant) then the stick came over his head (no striking yet!) - dog took off and had to be chased down and caught by his handler. They gave it a second try - now the dog wouldn't even approach the blind. They finally drug out a dog from the local SchH club, where even the handler laughed later that he was the only one that bit that day....he was a very weak dog who took years of conditioning to be able to pass a SchH 1 (and he was retired immediately after that). The following 2 dogs that went for their ZTP also were outta there as soon as the stick was lifted. It was an ugly sight.

The judge told me, in German only, that there are shows like this in Germany also where he judges, where one dog after another run. Occasionally he finds a show where some do not.

Question: For you Rott folks... my mother's seven year old, new neighbor just told me that his dog is a "Dogweiller", and went on to say that it is a mix of Chihuahua (excuse the spelling, please) and "Dogweiller." (We laughed when we initially saw it, saying that it looked like exactly that.)He also told me that it "bit a man in California and broke his arm,"; remember, this is coming from a seven-year-old.

The family is a very nice Mexican family with extremely minimal English. I do not want to appear hostile, but my children tell me that it comes into my mother's yard (these are country yards, with acreage, and she's in the woods)and growls at them. It is male, and likes to socialize with my mother's spayed female. My children have been instructed to go into the house immediately if the dog appears, and I will speak to the neighbor family (my mother has tried, to no avail.) I will also contact the sheriff, if necessary.

In the meantime, does anyone have any recommendations for dealing with the situation, should avoiding contact fail? How shall I instruct my children to behave if the dog becomes aggressive, to minimize the chance of an attack? It seems like good information for children to have, in any case.

Thanks,
Liz