At present I am sure many of you have heard the debate on the present condition of the working bloodline German Shepherd Dog today.
Many people feel that it is on the right track, many do not. But an intresting aspect of this fact is that most service dog handlers feel that breeding of the GSD needs to be revamped.
The question that is most frequently debated is the breeding of titled dogs vs. the breeding of untitled dogs. What do people think on this, and which direction should the breed take. Many people think that untitled dogs hold no worth in a breeding program. I am not one of these people but I would like to hear what other think.

While I think titles are an important tool, I think they are one among many, the most important being the breeder's knowledge and evaluation of the total dog. I have a SchH3 FH bitch that I do not feel is breedworthy. Her titles would indicate she is, but I know her true temeperament, her scores, where they were earned. She also has knee problems, which may be conformational. I also have a bitch with only a BH. I never tried titling her as she had alot of prior baggage. However, she is very sound physically and mentally and I think would be broodbitch material. I think the honesty and integrity of the breeder is of utmost importance.

Sue

I agree with the previous post that titles do not make a bitch breed worthy. I don't run my breeding program by requiring a title as a standar for the bitches I breed. I have written an article on how I select brood bitches (http://www.leerburg.com/broodbch.htm)

I will also say that the way I do things is not necessarily the right way. It takes experience (and not everyone has enough experience) to evaluate the temperament, drive and breeding potential of a bitch. I only breed about 40% of the female puppies that I keep back from 8 weeks and raise.

A lot of other experience people think the same way. Mike Hamilton (the president of Schutzhund USA and a good frined) just bred his Sch 3 bitch to an untilted male from my breeding program. The male has the exact same pedigree as my personal dog (Cyrus). Mike wanted blood from my stud dog Otis.

My helper and I were discussing last night how the changes (weakening) in the test, schutzhund, have actually caused the selection of dogs that are engaging a man that is basically playing a game with them. This in turn, a lot of the time, rewards the weaker, lower threshold and super prey drivey dogs and makes it hard for the stronger, higher threshold dogs to do well. Instead he feels that if we want safe, solid tempered dogs we should again toughen the test so that only dogs that strongly engage a man that is a real threat (strong attacks, driving through the dog with real stick hits, ETC) would be the dogs that pass and thus become breed worthy.

I am having trouble wording this well (I have rewritten it 5 times) so I hope you can get the meaning.

I don't believe titles make a breeding candidate for the reasons Sue mentioned. A poor dog can gets its titles under a skilled handler and vice-versa, some handlers just don't have the skills to do a good dog justice.

Then there's the world of politics. A lot of talk in the Rottweiler Community about the resent Klubshau in Germany. The male who won the show was OK, but compared to the dozens of other dogs in the class, he wasn't "Klubsieger Material" as it was put. Then further discussion about the judge's relationship with the dog's owner and reasons why the dog probably won.

All reasons why you shouldn't put too much faith in the titling system.

I'm not familiar with German Shepherd Breeding (my GSD is a spayed-rescue) but from the absolute very little I know from talking to a few GSD breeders and reading about it - there's too much division for one breed. When its divided by "Those show people" and "those working people" I can't even grasp how long it'll take to bring it all together into one whole breed again. One without the degree of angulation or sharp temperament or any of the other problems both sides have. A few years down the line, I'd hoped to get another, breed-quality German Shepherd but with all those "holes" in the GSD breed, it'll be hard to find a good candidate that has a correct temperament and drives, correct structure (non of that sloping hips or roached back) and even more so, the genetics to stamp its offspring with all of the desired traits. But thats just my .5 cent opinion which will probably change as I get more educated on German Shepherds. I'm a student in progress though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do agree with Ed. I think one critical part of this is someone who really does know the lines, has the experience and can make that call. That is why I am not a breeder. I do not have the experience and they knowledge that I need at this time, but am working on learning and working dogs.

I get tired of people that will breed or not breed to a line due to what they say they know (usually second hand information that some how ends up sounding like they know or have worked progeny of that dog).

If only all breeders were as ethical as Sue, who certainly *could* breed the Sch III, FH bitch, but chooses not to b/c she knows it is not in the best interest of the breed. That is truly commendable, Sue.

Hey Ed,
That is a real statement for your breeding program. It kinda symbolizes some of the weak parts in the SV system. It is a step in the right direction for the working GSD.
I do agree with you said on exprience and runnning a program; i would say the same for breeding any dog titled or untitled you need a sound knowledge of the breed and lines you use.

After having spent some time with a few notewd Malinois breeders where titling the bitches is not nearly as common, and in fact pretty uncommon in some circles, I would have to agree that females need not be titled. The malinois has gained favor to the point where it is the first choice among many many law enforcement agencies around the world, due to better longevity, agility, and drives. It is a little hard to say that the bitches need to be titled to produce good working animals. The impression I receive is that the breeder looks at the female for what potential she brings into the breeding. It is also a lot easier to reject a female you haven't invested so much time and $$ into and then have to do it all over on each potential new brood bitch. People are encouraged to breed those titled dogs regardless of production results just because it is a ton of work for the average working stiff to buy, raise, get lucky and have good hips/elbows, socialize, and title to a B, AD, show for G, kkl the bitch and still maybe have to start over again and again. It sure seems a breeder could explore the production of their bloodline if it is simply look towards a bloodline which has a good record of production, get x-rays, amd train enough to do a thourough temperment evaluation.