I have read the article about selectiontest for PSDs on Eds site that Kevin Sheldahl has written, is this how the police in the U.S normaly test policedog candidates?
In Sweden all dogs that are tested for policework first must undergo a mentaltest, if they pass the mentaltest they are also tested in strange enviroments and a test where the dog are tied up and threaten by a stranger to see his level of agressivnes. This mentaltest(swedish korung) are also done on the swedish workingdogclubs for civilian dogs. Here is a description of the swedish korung
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-97801/korning.htm

Another test is called MH, this is for younger dogs between 12-18 months, this test is the only realible test I´ve seen to see which genetic traits a breedingcombination pass on to their offspring, often whole litters are tested to see which breedings are good, this is a great tool for breeders to evaluate their breedingprogramm. This test measure the a dogs inborn genetics for traits that are important for a workingdog. To see if a dog are suited for breeding, his character must be tested in an untrained situation, otherwise the influence of the dogs trainer are to big, thats why the german korung in my opinion are not a good test, the dogs react in a trained situation, the same goes for dogs titled in protectionsports, many dogs looks great in their sport, but how much is genetic and how much is training? Many dogs get breed because they won a big SCH or KNPV championchip, but the same dog could show fear in a situation he never trained for.
A good workindog doesn´t need to be a good breedingdog, it´s the inborn talents that are passed on to the pups, not the skills a dogs get thru training. The more training/time a dog needs to be able to pass a workingsituation, the worser breedingdog it is. Here is a more detailed description of the swedish korung and the MH-test.
http://www.larwass.com/engelsk/emental.htm
In the mh-test no scores are given, only a judgment how a dog react in a certain situation because differnt breeds aren´t supposed to react in the same way in all situations, but of course certain reactions are better for a workingdog if it´s going to be used in protection. Here is how the test protocol looks in the mh-test.
http://www.rhodesian-ridgeback.nu/page/mentalengzu.html

There is a lot of goofy crap in that test. I don't think that half of those tests would indicate any quality that is necessary in a police dog. Kevin's test is MUCH more realistic. Why mess around with a bunch of weird stuff. At best a lot of those tests will just evaluate the dogs stability in weird situations.

Maybe I'm missing something in the translation.

Don´t get me wrong, there is nothing bad with Kevins test, the police here use the stake out test also, and the dogs are also tried a couple of weeks before their training for the policedog-certification starts, but they must pass this mentaltest first. There is also a difference how the police and the civilians at the workingdogclubs use this mentaltest. In the workingdogclubs all test situations are done in the same way on all dogs, but the police have no strict rules, they adapt the test after the induvidual dog to see how he reacts.

The difference between the swedish korning and the german is that we look at how the dog reacts in untrained situations,the german korung is very limited, a dog with a SCH title biting a sleeve in a surpriseattack and a courage test. If you look at a german korung you see that many dogs know whats going to happen, they are trained for it, therefore it has little value to see the real character in a dog.The swedish korning test the nerves,hardness and courage of the dog better, not many dogs get the higest points on those traits in these test.

But the biggest difference between our mh-test and all other test I´ve seen is how a breeder could benefit from it. All the result of this test are free for everyone to see, it´s saved by the swedish kennelclub, and many breeders demand of their puppybuyers that all the dogs in a litter should be tested when they are in the right age between 12-18months, so the enviroment hasn´t affected them so much, if a breeder test 5-6 litters after a studdog, he gets a pretty good view of what he pass on to his offspring and couldsee if he is on the right track in his breedingprogramm.

Workingtrails and so on are also important, but this test gives a breeder an easy way to evaluate the quality of a certan breedingcombination. A breeder who doesn´t use this test have to rely on his puppybuyers that they title a dog in SCH or another demanding workingsport if he should know what his breeding produce, all dogs in a litter would then have to do this if the breeder should know how his breedingdogs produce, not all dogs in a litter gets this chance, and the breeder don´t know how much is genetics and how much is the work of a good trainer.

I think you could get a pretty good info about a dog in this test, you could see how fast he recovers from stressfull situations, his prey and playdrive, if his overly aggressive or unstable, sharpness and so on. It has also showed by scientific research that dogs that do well in this test, also do well in practical work.

Stig thanks for the post, I like the way they do it there, makes a lot of sense.
After seeing many Schutzhund Competitions in Germany and being in a club in Zwiebrucken with my first GSD as an adult, I had the opportunity to see my first Sch. here in the U.S this past April in Rochester Wa. what a dissapointment. The 3 dogs going for Sch.3, which most were around five years old, should of been competing for Sch.1. The two dogs that were around three years old were going for Sch.1 should have went back home.
It seems to me and I am probably wrong but there seems to be a lot of leniency in getting these dogs titled and in doing so charging more money for the pups.
With your system it would put a lot of breeders in the U.S in the unemployment line.

Tim

Who the hell is Van Camp anyway? On what basis does he opine that the swedish korung contains a "....lot of goofy crap...." and "I don't think that half of those tests would indicate any quality that is necessary in a police dog". Stig goes to the trouble of writting a long post trying to make a usefull contribution and this 'try hard' shit cans him. I know that people like Kev Sheldale, Lou Castle and Paul Wotton speak from personal experience. Whats Van Camps experience? Has he done any soldiering or police work? A boy scout maybe? This moderator business seems to have made him think hes a expert or something.Being a moderator reminds me of the Mark Twain story where Tom Sawyer cons his mates into painting a fence for him because he cant be bothered doing it himself. Apart from the fact Van Camp spends a lot of time on the net on what basis does he deride a concept that a entire nations miltairy and police force use. The swedes arent stupid, have you heard of Husqvarna, Saab,Ericson and so on. Its not like their some backward third world shit hole.

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Rob....???

It's tough when 2 of your favorite people on the board rumble!

Usually with any of these selection tests, people are NEVER told specifically what they are testing for. I would be interested to know more about ALL of the selection test theories and how they are supposed to work.

Brendan- the ORIGINAL board asshole. LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm not gonna rumble (much), he has a good point, I'm not a police or military K9 guru. I didn't mean to come accross as sharp as I did.

I do know a little bit about dogs though, and some of that test looks useless IMO. Dummy decoys on slides? Does the dog even see that as a person, I seriously doubt it.

Specifically tests 3, 6, 7, and 10?? What is that all about? Maybe someone can enlighten me, like I said maybe I'm losing something in translation.

I think some of these tests could be better done by a real human, not a toy. To evaluate situation/circumstance stability they MIGHT be useful (minus #3).

I think that some of the test is good. The two advancing attackers is good. The whole idea is good, but in application they may be better served by using more specific testing, like in Kevin's test. I also bet that this is a old test and like Stig said, "There is also a difference how the police and the civilians at the workingdogclubs use this mentaltest. In the workingdogclubs all test situations are done in the same way on all dogs, but the police have no strict rules, they adapt the test after the induvidual dog to see how he reacts." I bet the Swed coppers alter it for there own uses. (maybe because some of it is goofy?)

I should have added that my post was a question, I was hopeful that Stig might explain some of those tests and their objectives.

Oh, and about the Moderator thing, Brendi "The Dumb-F-" Pudding, can kiss my crack.

This is a discussion board and I gave my opinion, just like Brenda did. I have witnessed selection testing for police service dogs, and I have worked dogs for a few years now. I know a little bit about what I'm talking about.

How about you Brandy? You still shooting dogs in the head if they don't meet with your personal standards??



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AND, I meant no offense to Stig. I think he knows that, BUT for Bridget on the other hand. . .

. . .well. . .I think you, and he, catch my drift.

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Quote Rodney King
"Can't we all just get along" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<---Laughing ass off!

Let me know when a couple of Ghosts rob the corner wine store. Naaa that ain't goofy.

<----Laughing Ass off more!