My department started it's k-9 program in 1995 with 2 dogs. We boarder the City Of Pittsburgh and have a mostly urban/subburban make-up. Unfortunatly, our k-9 program has taken some hard hits over the years. One dog was retired after 3 years of service because his handler decided that he did not want to work k9 any more. Our second dog is 9 yrs. old now and ready for retirement. We will soon be looking to replace this dog. We are in a position where this dog selection will make or break our k9 program. If we fail to select the right dog we will be flushing the program down the toilet. We use our dogs mostly for building searches and drug work. Tracking is something we need alot of improvement with. I would like some opinions from you all regarding the following questions/issues. Thanks in advance for the assistance!!

1) Do you feel that there is a difference in scenting/tracking ability between the Mal and the GSD?

2) Does the dogs gender relate to its scenting ability? (will females stop and smell every dog spot they come across?)

3) Have you found that a dog that excells in tracking will also excell in other scent related tasks? (narcotics, building and area searches)

4) Have you purpously looked for a green dog instead of a "titled" dog to stay away from Sport training?

I hope these topics will spur a ton of comments!!

Hello All:
I hope this helps some. First of all, would individual officers be purchasing the dogs or will the department be buying the dogs? I also wanted to know why the dog was not reassigned when the previous handler decided that he didn't want to work the dog any longer? OK, now for your questions:
1. I think breeds are as different as people, as a general rule, my department no longer uses the Malinois or Dutch Shepherd. I think they are both great working dogs, but not for a novice handler. The Malinois is very high energy and I feel that unless you had a superb training coordinator who is use to working with this breed I would not recommend this breed for a first time handler.
2. My department only uses males. Primary reason is they don't want to be put out by heat cycles and the distractions that females cause the other males during training. We also have a size requirement minimum of 72 lbs. I don't think gender comes into play with tracking. Its common that females are easier to handle and generally more willing to please.
3. Training for building searches is completely different than training for tracking. Of course the dog needs the required drives, but during building or area searches, directed OB is also very important.
4. We go with green dogs, just because of the prices, they are more affordable.
hope this helps,
Regards,
Brandon

Hi Matt,
Here's my two cents:..well maybe 3 cents
1) I personally don't feel there is a "difference" in how a Mal or a GSD tracks. I have at times noticed in many cases the difference in TRAINING a Mal vs. a GSD to track. As MOST Mals tend to be very "overdriven" at times, they tend IMO to be more sight oriented IF YOU LET THEM when you start to teach tracking. They are a dog, have a nose and if properly selected and trained can track as well as any good GSD. I know some GSDs who couldn't track bacon in perfect conditions so it's not a breed thing.
2) I have not worked with very many females as PSDs. There are several tracking SAR females I have worked with that work just as hard as a male. I also have seen some females, both Mal and GSD that I would let work on the street in a heartbeat. Spay the dog and let her work. Police Depts are not in the dog breeding business, so don't worry about it. I know a few females(yes dogs too..LOL) I wouldn't want to get into a street fight with.
3) As the last poster stated, they are not related. Some dogs who kick butt on a building search, track like crap. Some dope dogs couldn't search the woods for their food dish. It's about training and dog selection.
4) I normally stay away from titled dogs. There have been some KNPV dogs I've worked or brought over that made great PSDs. I can not speak for Sch or other dog sports as I never look at those dogs, but I'm sure you can find SOME that will make the transition to PSD work. If you have a good trainer, or can go to a handler course that will allow you to take part in training a "green" dog, I think it's the better way to go. If that's not possible, buy a dog who's "trained" to your departments needs or standards and then go for a solid handler course w/ the dog. Don't just order a "trained" dog pick him up and go to work..not smart. Also, look for K-9 trainers, not sport trainers...sure I'll get attacked for that one here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> All I saying is don't go to someone who trains PSDs on the side and does sport 99% of the time. Find someone w/ solid credentials and history w/ PSDs, not just sport dogs....putting on my suit now...can feel em' comin for me over that one........ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Matt get a dog from Josh Lewis here, I would.

While I hate "me too" posts I gotta agree with Van Camp about getting a dog from Josh. I've got a dog from him and wouldn't consider going anywhere else.

I'd suggest that you take a look at my stake out test that's on Dr. P's website at

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/castle1.htm

It lets a knowledgeable trainer select a dog based on the level and balance of his drives.

I also agree with Josh in that there are frequently problems with someone who comes from a sport training background, training a dog for police work. While there are similarities, the differences are significant.

They differences may never show up or they can occur in your first deployment. The differences can cost you your life.

I don't want this to turn into a sport v. police training mess so I'll add that I'd not try to train a dog for sport.

Yeah...I agree....definately....yup....me too!LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

We have several females in our program and the truth be known, the dog greatest feared in the northern region is Charbot, a nasty, hard biting, very aggresive, dope finding female handled by our guy out Holbrook, Az. The resident K9 here in Winslow is also a female. Sure they tend to be a bit smaller, all things being relevant. Save our explosive det dog in Phx, all of ours are Mals. The heat cycle thing I don'tunderstand: all our females are spayed as soon as we get them home from Riverside. Outside of the Lackland experiment, I don't know of any agencies breeding their own K9 stock so the heat cycle issue is mute, here any way. I noticed someone posted a minumum size / weight for their agency, just out of curiosity, is there a maximum and what is it? Something to be said for the 65 pounder that comes ascreamin' as opposed to the 90 pounder that can't get all four feet off of the ground.

You know this is very interesting. I work for a large department that started a canine program about 7 years ago. We now have 19 narcotic dogs and 4 bomb dogs. No tracking dogs. ALL of our dogs were obtained from private parties or the pound. I have heard that we screened about 250 dogs a year and only take about 5-7. They are all green dogs with no previous certifications or training. I think the big thing was cost (go figure).

My only input is that we had all kinds of dogs to train...male and female. I trained my dog green from day 1. I saw no difference between male or female. We trained a border collie, rottweiler, mal, and two labs (male and female) for narcotic detection work. They are all awesome dogs. For us...it came down to good training on the dogs. We had a pretty strict screening process. If they had high high ball drive then we could train them. They are still new in the field but they are getting more and more experienced. I think the big key is good fundamentally sound training principles. If they have the drives...they can be trained (my opinion...I am still a rookie).

That being said...The bad part about doing it this way is that you run the risk of washing dogs out in the training. Five handlers trainined seven dogs. We washed one about 2 weeks in, the second a little bit later and washed the third one on the last day (she could find dope but she became very handler protective and would bite anyone that even looked wrong at her handler - like a time bomb waiting to go off (female) - department said too much liability).

We finally graduated two golden labs, a rotweiller, a mal, and a previously trained (by us) colley (I think). They all find dope effectively.