10 Months ago I began a hunt for the perfect rotti capible of being a psd. (sound familiar <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) I located a male from good working stock and brought him home. From day one he was socialized with humans and other dogs. (no dog aggression at all) He has outstanding retrieve drive and his obedience is very good. He was taking a sleve at 6 months in play and outs cleanly on command. He picked up on tracking very quicky and will do anything you ask of him. He went to see the trainer last week for the first time and here is what happened... 1) He was totally uninterested in the decoy when he was posted. There was no indication at all that my dog thought the decoy was a threat. 2)He perked up immediatly when he saw the tug come out and showed alot of drive for the tug. 3) When he started to loose interest in the decoy again he got flanked real good and let out his first real hearty bark. After that, he did not take his eyes off of the decoy but was still not threatened by the decoy either. The trainer chuckeled at his "laid back behavior" (his words) and said that he could work him hard in defense and turn him around quite easily. Up untill this point I thought the dog had everything that it took to be a realy good psd, now I am not so sure. Opinions please!!!

You will get some of our police/professional trainers to write about this Im sure. I cant give you all the explanations that they can, but from my experience. A dog should not be expected to go streight from the tug and master to the sleeve and decoy. Some can but most require a little transition time. I take my pups to the training field 4 or 5 times just to watch the other dogs work. This usually gets them turned on first to the other dog and then to the decoy. If they dont go for the sleeve I have the decoy take the sleeve off and use it as a tug a couple of times befor putting it on the arm.
Also 10 mo s still young. Dont get in a HURRY.
I also try to remember thatMOST, not all but most professwional trainers train for money. The quicker they get results the better.I like to use a club and train my own. Hopfully Im not in a big hurry for results. Slow and right in the begining saves one hellof a lot of time at the end.
I wouldnt give up on him so quickly.

Just my openion. And I am not a pro at protection.But I do know dogs. and I train in other fields and do well.

Ron

Thanks Ron.... i goofed on the age...he's 12 months now.

You are pushing him way too far, way to fast. This is a pup that isn't old enough to be doing this type of defensive work. It will more likely screw the dog up than get the results you want.

At this point the dog hasn't had his temperament set. You don't know what you will have or if he is going to be dog aggressive at this point. If he is in the same condition at 2, then you will know. With all most all the Mossoloid breeds, they may have no dog aggression at a year only to have it show up at 18 months to 2 years.

I have to agree with Richard's opinion here. 12 months is still very young for your dog. He is still a pup and is probably only just starting to show signs of maturity. Hell, he's probably not even lifting his leg yet.

I personally would wait until he is about 18 months old before placing this kind of defensive pressure on him, and then only in small amounts until his confidence grows. He will let you know when he is ready. Remember when you work a dog in defense you are placing great pressure on them, and this at your dogs age could turn him in the completely opposite direction that you wish him to go.

Always remember the first rule of dog training (and the 2nd & thirds for that matter) Patience, patience, and patience, and that having a sharp defensive dog doesn't make a good police dog. A confident dog with the right genetic traits and development does.

Tony Chiverall
Police Dog Handler

I think the dog is to young to be ptting it in defense. I think your main concern should be building the prey drive. Going out for the sleeve in prey drive.The dog needs to first really enjoy the work and not have to be concerned for its own safety. Once the dog is going out eagerly for the bite and on the sleeve the decoy can show pressure with his/her posture. When the dog is more mature you cant put defense on the dog. The defense wont be hard to do but you dont want to start with it.

I meant to say when the dog is more mature you CAN put defense on it.

I'd also agree that the dog's age is too young for any serious work. With a Rotti I'd say closer to two years is when you can start to see some combat or fight drive in the dog...

Now...here's my personal soapbox rant...and I'm sure a few other may jump on it as well. Please this is not personal, but rather a hope you will see some long term fault with this type of training. I also hope it may get you to see where such work is very incorrect for a PSD

If this is going to be your PSD why the F@$@!% are you letting someone flank him?

1) If he needs physical pain in order to become aggressive at a higher level(even when mature) he is not a PSD candidate! The dog must have this level not from fear (defense) or reaction to pain, but rather genetically in-bred to engage in a fight naturally when challenged by a person.

2) If he is flanked, what is going to happen the first time you do a demo at a school and some kid (especially smaller kids) pets him too hard, or lightly pulls on him near his flanks?!!!....don't think it won't happen. When he spins around and takes off a child’s hand or worse, you can look back (perhaps from some manual labor job as surely you will be fired and sued) at the great defensive flanking some stupid decoy did to your dog and you allowed it.

3) If the dog requires (at any age) threats or pain to work, he will fail you on the street! When was the last time someone hiding in a building intimidated or pressured your dog? They won't. Suspects want to be quiet, hidden and not found. Not that they might not shoot and kill you, but they are hoping not to be found at all.
Your dog can not count on defensive drive to upload and work.

4) The street is not the training field. No decoy to stimulate. No equipment to stimulate. You can not count on the dog if he requires these things to work. By making him defensive (especially at a young age) you are really going to mess up his temperament and natural (should he have any) ability to do PSD work.

I'd find a new decoy or trainer and give the dog some time. Prey work at this age is fine so long as the dog does not become locked in prey at an older age. If he naturally has the ability to do PSD work, it will be there when he's older.

Off my soapbox now...sorry for the rant.

Right on Josh. Trainers who use fear to stimulate a response on any puppy under sexual maturity is not a good trainer.

Any idiot can teach a reaction that "looks the part with a bark" but they are still an idiot trainer. Most fast-to-flank and position/proxy trainers glorify themselves in their achievement to get a bark in an otherwise uninterested dog.

I look at these kinds of trainers like I look at the Never Say NO to the Dog trainers while different in ideologies still they are incompetent. Or my name is not Dennis Hasley. Which it is, so there you are. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Their understanding of dogs on at the most basic levels is definably wanting no matter how gregarious their attitude is.

If your dog has plenty of prey off the field with you need to forget the sleeve for a while if you are using one. Get a puppy tug put it on about a 15-20 foot rope. You leash the dog and hold on to him and have the helper make the prey object move. DO this first thing before you train anything else on the field so he is not tired or worried.

If the swing-by method on a rope does not peak interest: Leash the dog and hold the leash secure. Have the helper place the tug about 3 feet in front of the puppy and at a 45 degree angle on the ground. (Not directly in front)

At no time should the helper give eye contact to the dog and if possible, keep his flank to the dog.

The helper with the tug and a 20-foot rope should run away from the dog but leave the tug on the ground. When the rope runs out the tug will leave in the direction of the helper holding the other end of the rope.

You as the handler run to the tug with you puppy and act likeyou are going to steal it away. As soon as the helper feels the resistance of the rope he should stop trotting away.

In time the helper can decrease the distance between him and the dog as the dog learns the new aspects of this game. Maybe in 2-3 sessions the helper can close the gape to a few feet.

This should get you started. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh on more thing… Invite the helper to defend his position before you fire him.

You can also start building confidence with 'spooky stranger' scenarios. For example the other week we were training the Police GSD's and I brought my 9 mos old pup along to watch. (Very fun day for her <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

During a break I was grooming her and my co-worker (dressed in fatigues and a floppy cricket hat) came from around the building towards the vehicles. (an area with a lot of trees, an old abandoned building and very shadowy)and she spotted the movement and was up and barking at him, ( the circumstances appeared suspicious, not everyday people walking in the street.)

We both took advantage of the opportunity and he started ducking around the vehicles and I let her follow him, barking all the way. He kept retreating as I quietly encouraged her until he disapeared. She was quite pleased with herself chasing the 'bad guy' away.

This was a very small step which can eventually lead to a Bark and Hold if I so choose. The object, confidence building. Just like martial arts, you learn all the moves first before you get your butt kicked!