Seven Pine Kennels is probably one of the only legit places that's closer to my area. First of all let me say that I've never been insulted like this in my life from someone I didn't even know.

He demanded why I wanted to look at his dogs, and asked me what I wanted one for. This guy asked where I lived and I told him. I asked him nicely what hour was he usually available, this seemed to irritate him more so. He said he doesn't offer the kind of dog I'm looking for. (I only had about two seconds to speak.) He works with law enforcement only. I think it would've been more helpful to mention this on his website. He seemed to mention a variety of services that he provided. I thanked him for his time, and then he preceded to hang up on me.

I've heard good things about this guy from several people on the board. So what's the deal? Is this what I should come to expect when trying to find a breeder or a place I could train?

How does one learn from one that's such a "master of his craft" when they won't let you in the door? Does this occur often from time to time when you’re not a Law Officer? Maybe he should make everyone fill out a psychological evaluation to see if they're worthy to speak with him? I wonder if he could pass it?

I have recieved similar treatment from some outfits because I'm a civilian, they were police vendors, but it still didn't make me feel very good. I guess I was a little too nosey when asking about narco detection methods. Seems that cops don't want everyone to know how this works and what scents they practice with. I wonder why? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Common sense should tell you why,they dont know you and the methods used need to be kept to those involved,if a lot of the methods used entered the public domain it would enable a lot more dealers to conceal there drugs from the dogs.
This applies to many aspects of training,including explosives and the barrier being put up is not rudeness,purely caution.
Paul

I guess I was a little too nosey when asking about narco detection methods. Seems that cops don't want everyone to know how this works and what scents they practice with. I wonder why?

Because they don't know you and they don't know where the information might travel, to include who handles drug dogs in your area. A fellow officer lost a dog due to a suspect who was captured and released on bail poisoned his dog at the officers home.
For me, I teach seminars on police work to police officers. If a civilian asks me to teach a police seminar I refuse unless there is a reason such as they represent a fraternal organization, or law enforcement community organization.
If a civilian asks me to do a dog training semianr for civilians I direct it towards sport.
If some one calls and wants individual training to learn police skills I refuse...politly. I just don't have the time and I also have to question why someone would want to spend the $$$ to do this when they could and should be involving themselves in sport work. I cannot include them in much of the training police do because access to many locations I train is limited to police.
Many law enforcement dog handlers have experienced testimony from civilian experts in sport work which maligned their skills and techniques simply for financial gain and are careful to avoid giving ammunition to these pseudo experts.
A less injurous but very common practice that LEO's face is the civilian boltering their reputation among the dog training community by the interested civilian insulting their handling abilities and training. Some of the information may even be true but it is entirely innapropriate for people to do such things, yet it happens all the time.
Decoys getting hurt by police dogs happens and if it is not a cop covered by workmans comp then it makes both me and administrations nervous in our litigous world.
These are just a few reasons why law enforcement instructors are generally pretty stand offish when approached by interested civilians.
Now I won't speak in support of Guy, he can do that himself if he wishes, and for all I know he may have been rude. I do try to be polite though I don't always feel the need to explain why.

You guys have to understand that I wasn't asking about any form of scent work or ANYTHING. I didn't even get to say ANYTHING about training. I didn't get that far with the man. I didn't have the time to say practically a word. I was just interested in looking at his facility, dogs, etc. In his site it gave no indication that it was strictly law enforcement. I felt he also sold puppies to regular people, many people in his position do this. I didn't know.

I can UNDERSTAND what you guys are saying, but he runs an open business, as well as advertises his number/fax. People are going to contact him. Especially if there's every indication to do so. If someone wants to only deal with Law Enforcement . . . that's fine. BUT don't run a busines like without stating your policy and then be upset with someone like myself. I don't particular care being talked to like a criminal for something like that, and I KNOW you guys would feel the same way if you were me.

Plus I had asked about him here before and I got word from several people he was great, maybe they thought I was a cop? I'm not for the record.

Wolf, Mr. Powell never insulted you. He simply does not know who or what you represent. The dude is in the loop and with all respect, you are not.

You know, ya gotta pay your dues and I have not seen you on the leger. Thats not to say that one day you will not be there but Wolf, walk a bit slower here as this game is too small to create image problems this early for yourself.

Wolf, there is a lot more to this than simply wanting to be involved with dogs and the folks who do the work detail.

Personal security and family safety along with departmental process over a civeys zest for info.

Now Wolf, place yourself into Seven Pines and that Guys(pun)shoes.

Jerry

Hey guys, that was a joke. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I knew why I got the cold shoulder. But thanks for the answers anyway. You can always learn more.

I need to stop playing around with you serious types.

Wolf, I was asked to cross post this message that was sent to me by Seven Pines. Guy is not registered on this board so cannot respond direct to your post and has asked me to cut and paste for him.

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Jerry, a friend sent us the link to Frawley's board where someone, allegedly named Larsen, put a post about me insulting him. Thank you for defending me. Since I'm not registered there and can't post, would you PLEASE post the truth about this guy's call?
This afternoon he called, NEVER identifying himself during the entire conversation, and actually demanded directions to our kennel and a time of day to, as he put it, "come look at the dogs." I asked what dogs? He replied that he MAY be interested in buying one of our Malinois. I asked why he wanted a Mal, as I ask that to everyone who inquires. He got rather offended that I'd even ask a question like that. He replied that he wanted a "protective pet." I went on to say that we really just sold Mals to law enforcement and was trying to find out where he lived so I could find a pet breeder possibly in his area and the SOB hung up on me! End of story.
If you could relay this on that board, or even just cut and paste what I've writen here it would be a GREAT help. Thanks a million!
Guy
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Wolf, as a side note here. I myself have had a limited pro relationship with Guy and can tell you with all sincerity that he is legit and fair along with honorable.

Jerry Cudahy

I don't mind answering this sort of stuff. This way I can answer you so there's no miscommunication.

This guy seems very legit. His credentials are very impressive. I've never disputed that he wasn't reputable . . . as far as dog training. I think his people skills suck. Just my opinion. I know what I said, maybe he's getting old. Perhaps if one's "In the Loop" then maybe it's different. I however am not. I assume many people here aren't. I doubt he's concerned if he wants to keep his dogs in a law enforcement enviornment. Anyone whose was a Vietnam dog handler with the SOG or a K9 Cop for many years I'm sure is worth their salt.

For the record though, my name isn't Larsen, that's just a screen character I came up with a while back. I just did that because I wasn't aware of what to put. Just so you know it's sort of like a call name on a CB or something. My name is Brad Gargis. I would change it to my screen name, but I don't think I can, that's why I leave it in my profile. I thought it showed. Maybe it doesn't? I would've mentioned this but I didn't have the chance while talking to your friend. I'm sure if there's confusion someone can take it up with me. I believe Ed has my number. He can give it out to who ever he wishes. I just thought I was doing other people who weren't officers and favor and don't worry with Seven Pines. I figured Guy would appreciate it. This way he's not bombarded with annoying calls all day.

I'm not in the loop like I mentioned already, and anyone who knows this guy probably is. If he's only dealing with people who are worthy contacts or in law enforcement I don't see the problem. I thought people come here to say what they think. That's why it's a board. I have my opinion and I stated it. I don't want anyone though to be confused, my name is Brad Gargis. My number though is (817)568-8655 if there's anything he feels he'd like to say or anyone else don't hestiate to give me a ring. Just leave a message if I'm not available.

Thank you . . .

Wolf,

For a moment I am going to assume that your story is the gospel truth (I think the reality is in the middle somewhere), the questions you were asked and the attitude you recieved are fairly typical among the better working type breeders. It comes about for several reasons. Very often really good dog people are fairly poor people people. Some the chacteristics that make good dog trainers don't work well with people because it involves a level of "dominance" that isn't socialy acceptable. I see this alot with good trainers.

Second, good breeders are going to very carefully screen clients. They are going to take back puppies that don't work out in a home. A friend of mine took back a puppy that had progressivly become very aggressive with the owners because they had progressively allowed the dog to get away with snapping at them until they were afraid to brush the dog. They coudln't do anything with the dog. So the breeder took the dog back and had to work very hard with him for months to straighten him back out and find the right home for him. They were afraid they were going to have to put the dog down. If they couldn't have made him safe they would have put him down.

Third, if you can scare someone off with giving them a bit of attitude they probably won't have the temperament to handle the dog. Think about what it takes to control a solid working dog, if the person is willing to fold under a little pressure from a breeder how are they going to handle the challenges from the dog? In addition, if the person is overly pushy, overly controlling in a new relationship, unwilling to work at a relationship, how are they going to treat the dog? If the dog rebels will they get overly aggressive, will they get frustrated and lash out at the dog? Lets face it, a personality test for new owners of working dogs is a good thing.

Fourth, many people don't really know that they don't have the experience for a working type dog and they aren't willing to listen. Many think they do, but they don't have the temperament to deal with a dog that will challenge them. Many people think they have had hard dogs, but haven't had anything close to a working temperament. If they won't listen about what the dogs are, are they going to get the help they need with the dog if a problem comes up? I have worked with dogs for over 20 years, I still maintain a stong network of people to ask questions.

When I found a breeder that I wanted to get a puppy from this last time, it took me 3 hours over the phone to convince her that I knew what I was going to be doing with this dog. Every time I called to talk about puppies it took me 30 minutes to convince her that I was going to do the right things with my new puppy. We don't agree on everything, but we do respect each other's views. It was a test of my willingness to work with the breeder. When the puppy I wanted wasn't in her litter, she found me the puppy I wanted. She went to the other side of the country to grade the litter and pick a puppy specificly for me. I still could still pick the puppy I wanted, but I had some really good help in selection. My efforts payed off in a big way in my mind. It may take a little extra effort, but I think it is worth it.