A friend of mine leant me some tapes, which he got through Leerburg, of the Shutzhund Nationals, KNPV and Mondio Ring. We both noticed the difference in the Malinois on the tapes. Is it a difference in the bloodlines or is it a training difference?

barrie

What differences are you talking about, temperament or physical?

Well, there were definite physical differences which is to some extent what brought up the conversation.
I'm sorry, I don't even know the years for the tapes we're talking about, but the Shutzhund tape started with a very tall, thin guy and a mal that did some incredible heeling. But then if you compare that mal to the mals on the KNPV tape, where the heeling wouldn't even merit an AKC CD ;p but the hold and bark is sooooooo much more spirited.
So I guess my question was more: can you take one of the KNPV dogs and get it to the point of the Shutzhund mal (i.e., it is a training issue) or is it just that the dogs themselves are so different that the Shutzhund dog couldn't do the KNPV work and the KNPV dog just isn't capable of doing the Shutzhund work (thus making it an issue of breeding or bloodines)?
And then the Mondio Ring dogs seemed to be in a category all of their own.

barrie

I'm a complete neophyte so I'm not arguing with you, but how can you be so certain? And what about the extremely different physical characteristics?

When my friend brought up the subject I responded about like you but then I watched the Shutzhund and KNPV tapes again with him. He's a hundred times the dog trainer I will ever be and he was saying that he really didn't think he would be able to take his (dutch) Mal and turn in the kind of obedience performance we saw with the mal in Shutzhund. On the other hand his dog looks *exactly* like the Dutch mals when he takes a bite: he catches a lot of air and hits like a semi.
When he said it my initial response was, "Oh, you're just lazy and don't put in the time working on heeling that that guy does."
Then when he made me watch the tapes again and pointed out how much like his dog all the Dutch dogs were and how different the Shutzhund dog was I started to see what he was talking about.

And another couple of questions (if I'm driving you guys crazy tell me to shut up; I might listen <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> : The Mondio Ring dogs really impressed me but apparently Ed Frawley makes some comment on the tape that they aren't the best dogs? Why do they do so many inside leg bites? Is that a requirement or is it just what they like to do or are the dogs less confident or what?

barrie

Using and harnessing drive in obedience training is what it is all about. There will always be some dogs that are more, or less, handler responsive, but if you use good inducive methods then you can achieve amlost any type of training goal in obedience. Providing that the dog has the necessary drives to be induced. That's why I said any GOOD mal.

The comments made by Ed, I'm guessing, have more to do with the protection capabilities of the different bloodlines. That is something that is more about genetics than training. Nerve, drive, and willingness to engage are things that can't be tought. Heeling, stands, sitz, downs, and the like can. I have seen many a wild ass Mal from KNPV lines do great work in obedience.

So I stand by what I said, it is a training issue.