Some people think this is the same dog- some say they are completely different in ability and / or temperament. Are there substantial differences? Also, do AmStaff owners, especially the ones who leave the ears floppy and tails undocked, face the same degree of discrimination that APBT owners sometimes do?

Torre the Amstaff and Pits usually dont have docked tails. They are the same dogs but different strains. Some say the Amstaffs dont possess the ability pits have. For the most part that is true as far as fighting goes. Drive is arguable.

Unfortuneatly insurance companies and breed specific legislation target these dogs lump them in with pits, rotts and a few others.

Insurance companies discriminate against dogs and young adult drivers especially males. How do they get away with this and not get sued for profiling and discrimination based on age/sex and for dogs the breed?

They are both great dogs but with both you need to keep them confined due to their dog aggression. There is of course exceptions to this rule

Read Richard Stratton's books on the Pit Bull Terrier. From what I understand there's more differences than some people think. This should give you a good idea about this.

You'd be surprised how many people call some dog they don't know that looks intimidating a "Pit Bull." Cropping the ears won't make a difference. If I owned one, I'd do whatever I wanted to with it, legally.

As far as the insurance corporations go . . . why can they do half the things they do legally? LOL!
Look for the books at Amazon.com, etc.

In My 10 + years experiance with A.P.B.T and Am staff's I have found that all the things you loose for the "fight" you loose in the dog as well. Drive definantly included. There is a huge differance in a game bred dog and a show bred dog of any breed Drive included. I have also found the fighting strains have much stronger nerves and are much less likly to bite without due cause. Stick with the performance bred dogs they producess a much better animal.

I think what Dr. Davy is trying to say is that the American Staffordshire Terrier is a AKC recognized breed. Thus you have all AmStaff show breeders very specifically breeding the fight out of these dogs. The show line AmStaffs (are there non-show line AmStaffs? some.) are all softies. Big, well muscled, house companions.

I have several seen several good working dogs in the Staff's, AmStaff's, and the Pits. The thing that tends to happen with many of the dogs that are of different breeds is that Schutzhund is not necessarily a good test for their working abilities. If what you want to do is Schutzhund, get a breed that is designed for Schutzhund. IMO it is a lot like putting a pig in a dress. It doesn't look very good, and it irritates the pig.

On another issue brought up. If you breed show dogs you will get show dogs. Breed working dogs you get working dogs. By doing only one you will lose the other side. If you breed for both you will get both. It is harder to do because the selection of breeders is more difficult. You have to find a dog that has all the proper chacteristics. And speaking of which... THe BRT puppy my friend has ended up entered in a show by accident over the weekend. He took the breed (easy since he was the only one there, though he could have been excused), and the group. For both of the shows he was entered in. He nearly took BIS. Solid working lines and already working with no training. If people would get the idea that working and conformation are mutually exclusive, all of the working breeds would improve and the dogs would come back to what they were intended for.

Nice post Richard, but if I see BRT one more time in a thread not named "BRT Thread" I'm gonna puke.

Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............. . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

And if I hear one more person say you can't have a working dog that has show conformation I will puke with you. I have dealt with it for 20 years now. Which is why I don't have a Giant or a GSD or a Belgian Sheep, or a Boxer......... any more. The conformation goes to crap and then I start seeing dogs with bad legs or look like mutts touted as "working (pick a breed)".

Hey Richy, I'm just telling it like it is, not how I wish it was. I would love to see people breeding for both. I just don't that often. weak. . .