I figured since some of us want to know, and it would take away from the other topic, I would start a new one. I, for one, would like to know why you want a "Lord-free" dog. I understand you don't like Fero, and his offspring tend to be "nervy" or hectic. What I would like to hear are the reasons you want to stay away from Lord. I know that Mink & Fero were waaaaaaaay overbred, but Lord hasn't produced the number of progeny they have, and his statistics are about equal or better for what he has produced (could be d/t who owned the progeny). Just curious, as I like to know what each person thinks on the "big names" (as well as what they think on the "small time players").

Good idea Mike, and great name.
I too would like to kmow why he wants a Lord free dog. I have not seen it in his blood, to he has not been one of the over-breeders of Lord.
As I stated before, Lord produced great and not so great. What I have seen is males and females of off Manto that are very nice dogs. THere is no such thing as the perfect dog. I have not seen any soft temperment Manto offspring that Lord was noted for. They can be a bit hander aggresive, but nothing that cannot be controlled, or really anymore then the Mink line.
Lord put in alot of his dogs, aggression and sharpness. He also put some hander softness in his offspring.

I know that Mink & Fero were waaaaaaaay overbred, but Lord hasn't produced the number of progeny they have, and his statistics are about equal or better for what he has produced (could be d/t who owned the progeny). Fero was bred 241 times with 1181 progeny. 35 of which went on to the BSP.
Mink was bred 67 times with 341 progeny. 15 of which went on to the BSP.
Lord was bred 125 times with 551 progeny. 17 went on to the BSP.

Out of those three percentage wise:

Mink 4.40%
Lord 3.09%
Fero 2.96%

Although I don't believe with 67 breedings Mink was overbred.

Maybe he meant that the Mink line is being bred alot. Although, we could do worst!

Hey Todd, any comments on Lord?

Lords survey translated:

Good medium size, strong, dry, firm, proportions and expression very good. Firm, strong ears, very good carriage. Withers still good, back line slightly drawn upward, croup and forehand good, knee angles slightly open, thigh could be longer. Correct front, good bone and firmness of pasterns. Goes straight, front reach
better than rear drive, still good step length. Temperament sure, hardness, courage and fighting instinct pronounced; outs.
WA 91: normal further development.

I had a Lord Great Grandson. He was a very nice dog. Now was that because of Lord or everyone else?

However, I wouldn't hesitate to get a closer Lord son. Even a linebred one as well.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Taylor:
Maybe he meant that the Mink line is being bred alot. Although, we could do worst!

that's what I meant to say....you hear a lot of "Mink this" and "Mink that" everyone claiming him in their pedigrees.

I have never been a Lord fan. He was the DDR BSP winner three years in a row. I went the year after he won the last time. I had hoped to see him but he did not come. I have seen a number of sons her in America - not one is impressive.

I have heard that he had some good sons in Germany, I have just never seen anything worth breeding. I have seen small dogs, sharp dogs, and dogs with nerves I don't like. In addition his owner Baldo Krantz has a KK 11 temperament (if he were a dog he would never have been bred) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The worth of a stud dog is not how many dogs he gets in the BSP - unfortunatley too many people mistakenly think otherwise. Bernhard Flinks dog Itor is a perfect example. Itor will never win in the BSP (Bernhard tells people in his seminars that Itor is a 92 to 93 point protection dog in the BSP - even though he scored 100 points in the qualitfier - yet he is one of the best dogs I have seen in years and anyone who has seen the dog work or in his personal life knows this.

I certainly agree that the value of a studdog is not in how many offsprings he gets to the BSP, I would be more impressed if a studdog produce lots of dogs that has been evaluated by an experienced person to be a very good candidate for policework, where the demands on a dog is higher than in the BSP.

But why couldn´t Bernard and Itor win the BSP? An excellent trainer and a very good dog like Itor should be able to do this, is it because Itor is a to hard dog to reach the level of perfection in the SCH-programm that is needed to win. Could someone explain what is the difference betwen Itor and a dog that could win the BSP, what character traits differs between a BSP winner and a dog like Itor?

Ed:
"The worth of a stud dog is not how many dogs he gets in the BSP - unfortunatley too many people mistakenly think otherwise. Bernhard Flinks dog Itor is a perfect example. Itor will never win in the BSP (Bernhard tells people in his seminars that Itor is a 92 to 93 point protection dog in the BSP - even though he scored 100 points in the qualitfier - yet he is one of the best dogs I have seen "

What makes a good dog in your eyes ? Does success in schutzhund have no meaning ?
Thanks