Well, here's the deal. I've been looking at getting a GSD pup for awhile now, and after looking at various kennels, I think I'm going to go with Ed & the Crew.

I'd like to train my dog in personal protection. Problem is, I've never done this before. I have alot of experience with dogs, but haven't trained one for attack work before.

My original plan was just to buy a trained dog, but I'm not really sure where to look, as I want a dog from a good reputable breeder & trainer.

So now the problem lies: Do I find a breeder/trainer and purchase an older dog, already trained?

Do I buy a puppy and train myself, with help from Ed's videos and a couple individiuals I know?

Or do I find a professional trainer?

Any thoughts/comments/ideas/stories/suggestions etc would be appreciated.

Thanks
Phil the SP

Phil,
First of all, you need to define what you want. You alternately say you want a *protection* dog and then say *attack* training. Unfortunately, if you ask for an *attack* dog, you just may get one.
You can put a prey foundation on your own pup using Ed's videos, but you are not going to be able to do the defense work yourself. I dunno about the *individuals* you mention who would help you. Are they experienced in all phases of protection training? I keep seeing problems w/folks who ask their friend/neighbor/whatever for help b/c he/she happens to be or has been a K9 handler. Keep in mind that PD's get their dogs at 18 mos-2 yrs w/the foundation work already done. Make sure whomever you train with does *not* attempt to start a young pup in defense!
What is it you want? A good deterrent? Or a bite trained dog? Do you have the time to spend on maintenance training? It is an ongoing process that does not stop. Have you considered a sport, such as Sch or are you convinced you want PP training? Will your homeowners insurance co cover you?
If you seriously want/need a PP dog and are a novice, you are much better of buying an adult that is already trained. Puppies are a risk, it takes skill to pick a good prospect, then you have to wait around and see what develops both in temperament/health.
Just be aware that incompetent protection training is dangerous and there is too much of it going on. Avoid anyone who promises you quick results and/or tells you he/she can protection train *any* dog. Any trainer who does not start the pup or green dog in prey work is incompetent and dangerous. Be prepared, if you start w/a pup and do it right, you won't have a PP dog for another 18 mos at best.

Desert Thunder wrote:

If you seriously want/need a PP dog and are a novice, you are much better of buying an adult that is already trained. Puppies are a risk, it takes skill to pick a good prospect, then you have to wait around and see what develops both in emperament/health. Just be aware that incompetent protection training is dangerous and there is too much of it going on.

__________________________________________

I agree with a lot of what was written. Buying a puppy is a risk. There is the risk of picking the right breeder, the right bloodline, the right litter, the risk of health problems from 8 weeks to adulthood and the risk of screwing up the foundational training. All of these risks are real.

But I will also say that I feel that there is a bigger risk in bying a so called TRAINED DOG. I will say there are 500 times more people out there selling garbage dogs or overly sharp dangerous dogs with poor training than there are reputable trainers selling well trained dogs with good nerves. I get asked for these kinds of dogs every day and I tell people I do not have them nor do I know where they can go to get them.

I compare selling a so called trained personal protection dog to selling a hand gun to someone without training. People who buy these dogs usually don't have a clue how to handle much less train an adult dog.

I propose that a novice is fare better off acepting the risk of buying a puppy from a reputable breeder and raising the pup themselves. My tapes are very good at explaining exactly what a handler can and canot do. By raising a puppy the new owner learns with the dog as it grows. I agree that this will not always work but I will bet that if I surveyed 100 people who bought pups from my kennel three years ago and compared them to 100 people who bought trained personal protection dogs - there would be a lot more satisfied puppy customers.

When you purchase a puppy you know what you have. A blank slate. You don't have to worry about how much force was used or a slew of other concerns. What is great for you is you will not be alone. You have Ed and us to help you every step of the way. I have purchased 3 puppies from Ed and he has spent a considerable amount of time picking the right one for me. He will do the same for you. After you an Ed choose the right pup email me privately and I will list out the books and videos you will need that will fit your budget. Good luck!

Hi Phil,

One more perspective...

I decided to get a trained adult for my first PPD but it wasn't easy finding one trained the way I wanted it. Before I looked I defined what I wanted in the dog and which breed I wanted. It took a long time but I couldn't be happier with the results.

There definitely are a log of inadequately trained protection dogs out there so if thats the route you want to take, take your time and do your research.

Vince,
I can't agree that a pup is a *blank slate*. The pup is carrying whatever genetics he's got plus the kind of critical early handling he either did or didn't get. If they really were *blank slates*, our jobs would be lots easier <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I will agree w/Ed since he seems to be talking about getting a pup from a breeder who knows what he/she is doing. I've no doubt that Ed can sell you a pup w/the right genetic stuff and that was handled correctly in his earliest days. What I'm not sure I agree with is that it's easier to find a competent, reputable PP trainer than it is to find a well trained adult.
Where I do agree w/Vince 110% is that the breeder should be able to advise the puppy buyer as to finding a good trainer, as if the breeder is capable of producing pups who can do PP, then by definition, the breeder has a number of his/her offspring out doing PP. I certainly would not recommend you even consider purchasing a pup or adult from a breeder who isn't seriously involved in training.

I certainly don't posess a wealth of knowlege when it comes to protection training, but just to throw my 2 cents in I would say that if it were me, I would get a pup from someone with a proven reputation, such as Ed, before I would get a trained adult. Between the solid foundation of a well bred dog, Ed's training video's, along with the great wealth of knowlege from some of the people on this board, you will be in pretty good shape. Like others have said, unless you REALLY know who your getting a trained adult from, it could end up being a disaster. I can't say enough about the help you will get from this board. These people really love to train dogs and will be eager to help any way they can. Good Luck.

Vince,

When you said "blank slate", you were speaking of a puppy coming from someone like
Ed or another reputable breeder? I took your statement to refer more to environmental factors. Just my take on what you meant.

I will join Chuck and throw my 2 cents (I wonder where it's all going to, there must be a whole pile of loose change somewhere <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

Joy wrote:
***What I'm not sure I agree with is that it's easier to find a competent, reputable PP trainer than it is to find a well trained adult.***

It may not be easy, but it's possible to find competent, reputable PP trainers and I'm sure there are quite a few well trained adult PP dogs out there. What I haven't met yet is a REPUTABLE breeder/trainer who will sell a fully trained PP dog to just anybody expressing interest. I know quite a few very experienced and capable trainers/breeders/importers who routinely turn down numerous potential PP customers unless they prove that they are in clear and eminent danger, and not after spending at least three months on intensive training of the owner on how to handle such a dog, plus providing a network of equally competent trainers to maintain the training if the dog is sold out of state.

Well, regarding my needs:

As I explained to Ed in my email, my neighborhood is becomming rather nasty. My state doesn't allow Concealed Carry (of a handgun) for personal protection, and after several debates with some friends/coworkers, the suggestion of a PP trained dog was given. Sounds like a good idea to me, as I've been looking into getting a dog anyways.

The "individuals" i refered to in my original post are K-9 handlers/trainers with over 30 years experience between the two of them. Both were/are military K-9 handlers, have worked for the DoD, trained several SAR dogs, and have done great work with their own dogs. While the military may not have the best K-9 program (in fact I think it sucks) I do believe that some of their training is rather decent. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

Anyways, I'm not here to flame anyone (or be flamed) for my beliefs. I'm here to learn. If I am wrong, by all means please help me learn differently.

Thanks
Phil the SP

Renee,
I was thinking more of Phil purchasing a sport titled dog, honestly. But, I didn't make that clear enough, I don't think.
Phil, you aren't buying a military dog or police K9, you need to get a competent, ethical, responsible PP trainer if you are going that route. I'm going to leave it at that . . .