I have a theory that fear in animals is a natural self-preservation adaptation that is genetic. Wolves for example, are very tough but SPOOKY.

The spooky trait seems to be genetically dominant... meaning that if the fear genes are present, they will be passed on to offspring (though the spooky trait may not always be visibly expressed).

As a result, it is virtually impossible to obtain a truly solid animal (sound temperament AND genetics) unless the spooky trait has been intentionally avoided.

Consequently, any dog is only as solid the weakest dog in its pedigree. What do others think?

The same theory was once applied to monkeys in a Nature special quite a few years ago. I don't remember the actual program but it was the whole nature (genetics) vs. nurture (upbringing) debate. Infants from both a socially dominant and confindent female and a low-ranking fearful female were separated from their mothers and studied for certain behavior traits. When they were reintroduced to the troop they were given to the opposite mother. A year later both infants, while influenced by their mothers social standing, still remained basically the same. The young monkey from the dominant mother was slightly more subdued, but still very outgoing and confident (as opposed to his foster mother). The youngster from the subordinate and fearful mother was more confident (due to his foster mother's rank) but was basically still the fearful and hesitant young monkey he always was.

I guess you could say that the moral of this story is that while training and upbringing can instill confidence and other positive personality traits, genetics still plays a very big role in determining the basic nature and personality of any animal, dogs included.

I really don't want to get into a nature vs. nurture thing... its well documented that the fear is genetic (though we can argue about how much).

In puppy testing, some animals tend to percieve most new experiences as dangerous from the very beginning.

The point is, most breeders tend to view the spooky trait as recessive but I think that if its in the gentic pool the dog should not be bred.

Just like with hip displaysia... if the grandparents have it, I don't care whether the parents ARE OFA normal...too risky.

Maybe we should treat the "spooky trait" in a similar manner.

If an animal is void of all"spooky traits" would it be safe to say it has the "stupid trait"

But if you are testing a puppy at 6-8 weeks could you not be overlooking some good dogs? Don't t puppy personalities keep forming past the fear stages? I know personalities are basically formed by 8 weeks, and pets are generally placed by then, but at that age a lot of puppies haven't really been exposed to the big bad world. Could some of it just be plain inexperience? Could a lot of "middle of the road dogs" not make fine working dogs?

Not a breeder, nor do I want to be. Just always interested in good, thought provoking discussions and honest debates. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well there you have it... according to you two "spookiness" is ok... or, maybe even a good thing. Sigh... you can't get blood from a stone. End of discussion.

Dave the magic of this board is the various points of views that members bring to it. Don't be so quick to end a thread. Let's talk this out a bit.

In the debate over genetics and learned behavior I have heard numbers like 30% is genetic and the other 70% is learned behavior. Does anyone agree or disagree with these percentages? If this number isn't to far off then it seems that there is alot of room for training and other types of imprinting.

In a litter you will have a range in the temperaments of the puppies. Would anyone agree or disagree with this?

Now assuming you have a dog with a middle of the road temperament or on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the best a temperament of say 5 you could train this dog to be a good working dog. But is this the animal you would want to breed?

I guess it comes down to figuring out what are genetically passed on traites and what is learned or trained into the dog. The ablility to handle stress is very important in working dogs. I'm not sure if this is the spookiness that Dave is talking about but the inability to handle stress could be seen as spookiness. There is certainly a portition of this that is training but how much is genetic and how much of it can be improved through breeding? If Dave is right and a dog is only as solid as the weakest dog in its pedigree then breeding wouldn't really solve this problem unless you stop looking at the pedigree after a certain number of generation. I hope this can be done as it is a goal in my breeding program.

Not alot of point to all this just more questions. I hope this thread hasn't been closed.

With the exception of abuse or some tragic occurence, fear is primarily genetic.

I defy anyone to give a citation for a valid scientific study indicating indicating that fear is mostly environmental under normal conditions.

If fear was truly 70% environmental, many American bloodline shepherd owners must be TEACHING their dogs to be afraid.

With regard to your comment about dominance... I think you are correct. It may be more accurate to say that the fear genes TEND to dominate.

However, I think that if breeders treated it as though it WERE truly dominant, we could advance workability and stability greatly.

Ten years ago, when I started breeding Rotweillers, I bougth my firt bitch. Now I know how bad she was.She didnt have no defense drive at all, very litle play drive.

I was young and stupid, and She was my first dog.I Knew she was a piece of shit as a protection dog, but I thought I could have some good puppies from her.

She was mated to the best sires avaiable, some of them great. I pick one female puppy from her litters, and again just mated with the best.

Once upon a time, I had puppies with very serious shyness problems. I cull off all dogs in my kennel related to this bitch and get started in german working lines.

Now I know how stupid I was. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

You never can solve a genetic problem. The problem will be there, like a ghost waiting to come back.

I strong believe that spooky trait is genetic, and any dog with that problem should be culled off reproduction.

If you have a spooky dog, you can train a lot, but in the worst moment you need, he will fly away. I have learned that in the worst way, wasting time and money.

I read a long time ago some of Edd's article: Pick of the litter. Its great. If you want a dependable working dog, get every information about all of his relatives.