Just want some feedback. Last night, I put my dog in a long down in preparation for his BH on December 13th. He is 16 month old from working lines.. He knows the down VERY WELL.. Last night, I put him in a long down and he got up right away so I went to correct him (he had the pinch collar on).. Immediately he began to growl and snarl at me.. The trainer tells me to grab the leasch and pull him up in the air until he calms down *while saying FOOEY FOOEY" then putting him back down in a long down..

Is this the recommended procedure? Is this a sign of a dominant dog? What are your suggestions? I was told that the dog should never growl or snarl at his handler, otherwise I have to "make the dog think his life is at the end".

I would appreciate any feedback.

Need more info! The dog's body language as you approached would have said volumes - my bet would be not dominance at all, but fear. If your body language/voice as you approached said "you're in deep shit" and you let emotion get into the equation, it probably made him worried, especially if this is not the first time you've corrected him strongly or hung him. When they warn you with a growl/snarl out of fear, making him see Jesus doesn't improve the situation. There's usually a deeper problem if the dog has reason to be that worried - the timing of the corrections has been off and he's not understanding how to avoid them, or you've overdone them. Does he make strong eye contact, prick his ears, where's the tail carriage when this display of growling is going on? These things tell you his state of mind/his motivation for the growling.

Hi
It was at night time so I could not really observe his eye/tail/demeanor. I think he has growled/snarled at me before but since I am deaf, I did not recognize it. This time, I had a trainer close by on the field when this happened. I think in a long down when you are a few feet away, you cannot really give timely corrections anyways (Can you? without the use of an e-collar?). Im talking about 50-100 feet away.

I will observe the next time it happens and watch his body language. Thank you for your response.

Michael

You're right, as the handler, you can't give a timely physical correction when you're 50' away. One option is to use the ecollar, another is to put a long line on him and let the trainer hold it (tho the dogs get wise to that one pretty quickly, I think). My preference is to simply use a VERBAL conditioned punisher (phoooey) as he starts to get up. You can mark the misbehavior extremely accurately. Often this is sufficient to interrupt the behavior and they settle back down. If not, and I believe I have sufficient control that he'll lay back down on command, I'll say platz; when he lays down, I praise. If I doubt he'll lay down, I stay quiet after "phoooey", walk back to him, DO NOT CORRECT HIM, give him the platz command, give him a split second to get down, and if he doesn't leap down, give a leash pop down (usually they leap into the down and avoid the pop). I never correct the dog AFTER I've had to walk all the way back to him - it would only make him fear me and he wouldn't know why he got corrected cuz it's way too late.

No Wonder..
When Onyx got up, I said "NO" went to him and gave him a pop on the leasch and said DOWN again. I like the way you do it, Lee.. That way when I go to the dog and say DOWN and he downs and I say GOOD BOY.. Then that would reinforce a positive behavior instead of approaching him and popping the leasch way too late.. Ill try that, thanks Lee I appreciate it.

Unfortunately the dog isn't able to understand that the correction was for something that happened many seconds ago. That's why he was afraid of your approach. Tell your "trainer" to read a book on learning theory! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (Sorry, couldn't resist!)

I really like Lee's explanation. Very concise!
If you're not using an e-collar, then you don't have a lot of options with "distance learning" if you want to use punishment.
The timeliness of your correction is absolutely critical with a punishment procedure....much more so than with reinforcement. It has to happen the moment the 'bad behavior' occurs or you've pretty much lost your chance (pretty much).
Phooey! or some other conditioned aversive stimuli is a good tool, but never over-use it! ...and it must be conditioned as a "bad thing" before you can start using it. If you say (or shout) it too much though, it will lose it's association with the unconditioned aversive stimuli (the physical punishment)....so you when you do use a physical punishment, be sure to include your own "phooey!" at the same time....do this to maintain the conditioned aversive effect.
There's more to say about this, of course, but I'll stop there. Getting compliance at a distance as you are is always an interesting puzzle to solve.