The ultimate GSD I know where to find them. Czech, DDR a passing fad. This ultimate GSD has no health problems has no fear and are very hard dogs. Caution only the most experienced trainer can possibly handle them. Who are these dogs? Where do they come from? Well my friends they are called Nam GSD. They come from the jungles of Vietnam and Cambodia. The US army abandoned them some 20 years ago. Left to fend for themselves in the jungles of Nam they formed packs. Only the strong survived. The weak the sick were left to die. Only the strong produced with the strong. Mother nature was the breeder and there were no screw-ups. Twenty years of breeding in this manner, in the hostile environment of the jungle produced the ultimate dog. Believe it or not?

Man you might as well just go buy a wolf....

Robert

 Quote:

Originally posted by milt:
The ultimate GSD I know where to find them. Czech, DDR a passing fad. This ultimate GSD has no health problems has no fear and are very hard dogs. Caution only the most experienced trainer can possibly handle them.

This is comical, for real - but you've raised a realy valid issue. I'd sure like to hear alot more from folks with ALOT more experience than me on the subject of selective breeding for temperment (and yes, I'm looking for those books I saw suggested) and also, maybe (please if it's not inappropriate) some information on some of the more well known or used "lines" for the various aspects of temperment.

It seems to me there are several different standards going on even with working dogs, just as there are many things a working dog might specificly do. Which aspects of temperment correspond with which activities? I mean, it's common sense (?) to assume that a SAR dog wouldn't need as high a fight/prey drive as a dog in military use - can someone give a little more specific information? like "for _____ task, it's good to see ____ but not ____ in a prospect"

It might be good to know that I shouldn't consider a dog with "adolf von hitler" lines for work in tracking a lost child :-) and maybe one would NOT like to see "Barney von Dinosaur of Sesame Street" lines in a dog needed for riot control.

And what, aside from floor puddling cowering and inane/insane hyperactivity and basic "dumb dog" are considered "Temperment Traits NOT to Breed"? Me personally (and I'm growing more humbly aware that I know too damn little) I feel that uncontrollable and or unpredictable aggressives should NEVER be bred.

It seems there is a fine and faint line between USEFULL dog and DANGEROUS dog. What becomes of the "other pups" in a litter of dogs bred for riot control? <<ducking and running>>

Thanks in Advance
Bobbie

I feel very strongly that you follow Kevin's post on breeding from yesterday. You breed the 9s and 10s. In that working litter you should get a wide range of dogs anyway.

I don't think there should be a weak GSD bred ever, for any reason. There is no area of service that does not require a high drive dog.

And here is a comment about SAR. If you want to train a search and rescue dog and go out on the weekends and solve "problems" with your buddies, have a BBQ after the day is over, and pat yourselves on the back for being great humans and valuable resources- you can use any damn dog you want to train. Proven by the mulititude of SAR dogs that are total garbage out there. That is the majority picture of civilian SAR, one reason why I don't do it.

Now if you are going to be working in Disaster Rescue, Real SAR, hard core, 100% balls to the wall, WORK you had better have a damn good dog. HIGH PREY DRIVE, HARDNESS, COURAGE, and any thing else you will find in the top GSDs in the world. Try to work multiple 14hour shifts in disaster conditions, with possible injuries, wear and tear on bodies and mind, life or death serious situations with a lower drive dog. What do you think is going to be DRIVING that dog to work under the physical and mental stress?

Riot control? What the hell are you talking about?

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp:


And here is a comment about SAR. If you want to train a search and rescue dog and go out on the weekends and solve "problems" with your buddies, have a BBQ after the day is over, and pat yourselves on the back for being great humans and valuable resources- you can use any damn dog you want to train. Proven by the mulititude of SAR dogs that are total garbage out there. That is the majority picture of civilian SAR, one reason why I don't do it.

Now if you are going to be working in Disaster Rescue, Real SAR, hard core, 100% balls to the wall, WORK you had better have a damn good dog. HIGH PREY DRIVE, HARDNESS, COURAGE, and any thing else you will find in the top GSDs in the world. Try to work multiple 14hour shifts in disaster conditions, with possible injuries, wear and tear on bodies and mind, life or death serious situations with a lower drive dog. What do you think is going to be DRIVING that dog to work under the physical and mental stress?

Wow- I am not sure where to start here. First off I do agree that any dog doing any type of SAR should be a high drive dog. And I will concede that many of the dogs out there are weak. But to make a comment that says that the majority of SAR dogs that are not doing USAR are crap, is a completly irresponsile statment to make. USAR is not the only discpipline in SAR that require long hours and mentally tough dogs and handlers. I hope that you are not insinuating that finding a lost child in the woods is any less important to that kids parents than than to those waiting for news of loved ones lost in earthqaukes and rubble piles. I have seen dogs work for hours on end days in a row looking for someone in the woods- or the water or underground. Yes a USAR dog has to have a tougher constitution, in many cases due to the stress of travel and conditions but dont call all SAR dogs crap. Any dog that will work for multiple hours in 100 degree weather fighting through brambles and brush without stopping deserves a bit better than that.

It sounds as though you have had a bad experience with a poorly trained and unproffesional civilian SAR team, I can assure you that not all teams are like this. Mine had members that are also on a FEMA team and we sent even more dogs to a 9-11 site at the request of police agencies.

Do we enjoy hanging out after a day of training, yes, so what, that does not make us any less dedicated to working our dogs. And it certainly has no bearing on how our dogs worked or their abilities.

Now if your statement was to make the point that even SAR dogs need to be well bred and have a high drive than I agree with you- but I think the point that the other guy was making was that SAR dogs dont necessarily need the "fight" drive or a high "defense" drive to be a good SAR dog.

Wow, Van Camp, sounds like you have a major chip on your shoulder, man! I have heard of the people that are involved in wilderness SAR for ego gratification, but I have yet to meet any of them. I'm sure they're out there, but everyone that I have worked with has been one of the good ones, those who volunteer a great deal of their time, training under realistic conditions, in all weather, all times of day, all types of terrain, just to be able to find that lost hunter, hiker, alzheimer's patient, child, or mushroom picker, who probably shouldn't have been out there in the first place! Not to mention cadaver work, which provides neccessary closure to the families of missing people. SAR is no place for ego, but for humility and service to the community. I'm sorry you have not seen that side of it.

I agree that a wilderness SAR dog has no need for "fight" or "defense". A high prey/play drive, and the stamina and physical conformation to work for long hours in rough terrain are critical. Even a mutt can do that, if it has the right temperament. I've seen some damn good mutts, too! If that's what you call a "crap" dog, then I think you need to reevaluate your idea of what wilderness SAR is all about, and meet some of the good folks who do this. Of course these people bond with one another; they have a common interest that takes years to become proficient at! If it weren't for experienced folks willing to take me under their wing and teach me what I need to know, I wouldn't be involved. I'm so very grateful to have these people give of themselves in that way, and feel so fortunate to be involved in such a challenging and rewarding occupation.

There was a documentary on the history channel concerning military K9 in Vietnam. If I recall correctly, the military killed their K9s. The military's reason of not bringing these GSD and Labrador retrievers back was that they were infected with diseases and would have posed a risk to dogs in the USA. Only a handfull were ever brought back to the USA from vietnam. No mention of releasing then to fend for themselves in the documentary. They were treated as military property. Military property is usually destroyed rather than left for the enemy. However if I would have been a handler of one of these K9s and knew my K9 was going to be killed, I certainly would have prefered releasing him into the jungle and hoped he would survive. at least that way he would have a chance. If there are packs likes this in vietnam would they not be a mixed group since the military K9 were not just GSDs but also Lab, and boxers as well as other breeds?
here is an article on crisis therapy dogs used on the WTC site
WTC Crisis therapy dog
the last part of this article states that the GSD whom this article is about will be barred from certification once he obtains his Schutzhund title.

The documentary is called 'War Dogs'. I have a copy of it. Very good video. Most of the dogs were taken to the company vet and euthanized. A handful were given to the Vietnamese. If you want to go to an interesting link regarding the dogs in Nam...

http://www.vdhaonline.com

It is the Vietnam Dog Handler Association.

Bad link Todd...can you repost?

I always do that...lol

it is

http://www.vdhaonline.org