I am a new dog trainer. I have a 1 year old GSD. He is very gentle and mellow. It was an amazing surprise to us at 5 months that he could drag me across the road when obsevring our first protection show. Something about that screaming attacker turned him into superdog. So the trainer allowed very limited bite work. No pressure, just fun stuff. Well of course at 8 months I wanted to look into Schutzhund. IE discovered Leerburg website while looking for Agitation harness. Was allowed to "audition" for one club and outright denied by second club because of our PP background. Now 2 moths later was denied membership to second club for same reason. I am told schutzhund is strictly for sport and breeding purposes. Am I crazy or are they not teaching dogs to look at people as prey? I walk past the cars with the schutzhund dogs and they are rocking off the axle attacking me. (My dog is always sitting calmly) I train my dog twice daily off leash, anywhere. There could not be a more stable dog. I don't understand this. Could a one of you shutzhund people explain this to me. Is it my area that is opposed to PP or schutzhund in general. Very disappointed.

VVG,

It may be the area, but I can see why a SchH trainer may be nervous about a PP dog. Many of the PP dogs are not taught to limit to just the sleeve. I guess I can see why that may make them nervous. Out of curiosity where are you? Are there any other types of protection sports being work there or near there?

That sounds stupid to me as well VVG, I had similar experiences with several clubs in my area as well, not because of "I think Personal Protection" background, just because I am Green, it's almost like, they want to hog all the glory or something. It really pissed me off! I would be willing to bet a great deal of money if an attacker came at one of them with their SCH dog they would'nt say "Hang on, let me put my Breeding/sport Schutzhund dog away before you kill me, he is not a personal protection dog, I don't want him hurt". Give me a Break!

I just formed my own dam club, and am learning myself with the help of the great folks here and all the books I can find. F*** Em! Let them cry over my points at trial time. Can you tell I'm still bitter about all that?

I can't explain it but I sure can relate with you.

Yes, he will go for any part presented to him sleeve-foot, but no dirty bites. Actually trained him release by saying ouch instead of out. The agitators are experienced and don't seem to be the ones concerned. My dog is not exactly aggressive and it is quite clear to any skilled dog trainer. This particular group just does not believe in Protection dogs at all. Minneapolis.

 Quote:

Originally posted by VVG:
Actually trained him release by saying ouch instead of out.

...getting a picture in my mind...
bad situation, dog has to defend, bites the attacker, the attacker says ouch, the dog releases, the handler gets frustrated and tells the dog to bite again, attacker says ouch again and dog releases, and it's a never ending cycle until the attacker brandishes a weapon and gets the dog right after he says ouch.

sorry, but that's the way my mind works <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ouch, thats exactly what my trainer said.

Our club will also deny membership to people who do personal protection with their dogs and it is strictly due to liability issues. We had a club in our area sued when a club member's dog , who also did PP, bit a woman in the face, and the owner tried to divert responsibility to the club, saying they taught the dog how to bite. When dogs are trained purely for the sport, they trigger primarily off of the stimulus context which includes the sleeve, bitepants, maybe the whip, etc. They really don't learn to view humans as prey; the sleeve is the prey, and without it, many sport dogs wouldn't bite a biscuit. Our club has bylaws that state objectives, which include training dogs for sport OR for service like the police, but not PP.

It's a shame. But it's the facts of life.

The Schutzhund clubs in my area seem to be pretty open. However, years ago when I first started training it was actually with a PERSONAL PROTECTION group that was very hesitant toward newcomers for 2 primary reasons:

First, liability concerns relating to perceptions of responsibility (or lack of) in the handlers.

Second, protection work seems to bring out rather questionable characters with dogs named "chainsaw" that have no interest in obedience and just want to "know how to make em bite"

Often, the training director would be somewhat aloof until he got to know the new people more closely.

Thanks so much for input, Guess I just needed more input to get over the rejection. Probably should think about liability more. Guess I figure anyone can sue anyone at any time. Our PP training is designed more to assure a dog that has potential to bite will not, as well as protect if an attack happens. I'm sure there are irresponsible trainers out there, but I don't really think all PP dogs fall in this category. Isn't a police dog a PP dog?