Being new to Schutzhund, I have visited several clubs and bought several years of the USA Nationals and the BSP. Many of the people at the various clubs I have met got their dogs by importing them from Europe already titled. They explained that this is more fun, because one can then walk on the field and compete, rather than being unsure about a pup for months and months and possibly wasting all one's time and energy on a dog that may not have "it". I was even told that just about every dog at the top of USA schutzhund is an import and had already been titled over there. Is this true? I just don't see the point of buying someone else's work and displaying it as your own...what is the fun in walking on a field and just walking next to the dog and getting a title? you're not EARNING the title, you simply BOUGHT it.....am I wrong here? I really wonder what everyone out there with real experience has to say about this because I am confused....

I'm new to Sch as well Scott... my take on it is, it depends on what you get off on..some people get off on just trialing the dog and not training it to that level. Some like myself really enjoy the journey to the trial by learning to train a sport dog, behaviour study and working/bonding with the dog from a young age, and if the pup does not make, then you get the great experence for 4 years, and a VERY well trained house dog! THEN you can select a better dog for the next project! Or in most cases, re-evaluate your training.

My view on this is that like said some people do not like to train a pup for three years. They simply do not have the time, to train a dog for sport from start, but they enjoy training a few times a week and like to compete.

Trialing a finished dog for the new comer is a good way to go. This will teach you alot about the sport, and handling. It will also give you some time out in the clubs watching and learning training methods.

Most top dogs in the sport are trained in Europe and then shown here. At the least they are titled to a Sch1 and pretty much ready for the other titles. Do not get me wrong, it takes a fair amount of work to maintain and get a dog ready for top competition even if the dog is trained already. The advantage of this is that you know what you have to work with. Many dogs in the BSP are titled dogs before the owners take them to the BSP. It gives the handler a chance to see what the dog is and say in a year be out there and showing. If you take a pup, it is about two years wasted if your goal is to compete at the top levels if the dog does not turn out. It is also hard if you do not have a good training decoy to start a dog from scratch.

It really boils down to what one's goals are. But showing a dog and doing well does not always make a person a great trainer. There is nothing wrong with this as long new comers are not mis-lead into thinking that these folks are great trainers. They very well maybe, but they also may only be good handlers. Take for example Gottfried. He maybe a person who can coach good handlers to the top, but none of the dogs that I know of that have made the top with him, were started with his methods. In fact they were titled and trained entitley diffrent in Europe. This claim to fame is mis-leading. Things like this is where people need to beware.

so the majority of people competing in schutzhund are HANDLERS, not trainers?

It just so happens that I had a brief discussion yesterday with Ed about just this topic.

If you are going to purchase a National level dog you had better be a National level handler/trainer, with a National level HELPER, otherwise you are going to waste a nice dog.

That said, I believe it takes more skill to raise and train a dog from 8 wks to USA Nationals than it does to train a trained dog. But, there are a lot of other factors- Helpers for one. No one person can ever take all the credit from training a dog in Schutzhund.

It's been said that buying a titled dog is a good way to go for a person new to the sport so that they can learn...that simply creates higher and higher prices for trained and titled dogs, and also leads to helpers and trainers here charging precipitously more money for their services. Here in the Northeast, it's very depressing trying to take a puppy with the goal of attaining the 3. this is because all the clubs i've been to charge outrageous--or at least what i think is--prices to train a dog to get a title. If many people are willing to pay lots of money for titled dogs, why shouldn't trainers and helpers charge the same if you decide to do it yourself? so they do, at least here...i'm talking about 10,000 and more to get help from a club in training a dog to a 1, and almost double that to get the 3. This isn't a sport, it's a business and a hobby. Plus, if i pay that kind of money to go through the training just to get the 1, at the trial the majority of the dogs will be from europe trained most likely far better than mine, and i will score a lot less points. So it is a circular negative: the buying of titled dogs creates higher prices in trainers and helpers here, and because of the higher amount of money, enables a lot more mediocre and less skilled helpers and trainers to charge higher prices. Therefore it becomes actually more economical to buy the titled dog from europe and not learn how to train dogs yourself, and learn how to problem solve.
In other sports, let's say cycling, one has to train hard and long, simply to acquire the fitness to FINISH a race, let alone win. It's been said that many people buy titled dogs because they want to compete, they may not have the time to train, etc. That's nice, but in other sports one has to aquire a base of fitness and skills BEFORE even actually competing. I may be way out of line here...sorry if i offended anyone, but isn't Schutzhund a TEAM sport: you and the dog? isn't it a bit embarassing to have the dog know more about the sport than you? Is it about just showing up and walking next to the dog giving commands and looking good, or is it about training, going through all the problems that accrue and demonstrating YOUR skills and abilities and relationship with the animal? at least, that's what i think of when i think of a sport.....but is schutzhund a real sport in the first place?

Originally posted by SCOTT007:
so the majority of people competing in schutzhund are HANDLERS, not trainers? A lot are very good handlers that can train. But there are a few that are really great trainers. This is where I think the diffrence lies.

As said to compete and do well in the Nationals you need a National level trial decoy. If you have a finished dog or a dog that is titled, this may be enough in terms of decoying. But if you start from scratch you need a great training decoy, and these are far and few between in my view.

Set aside protection there is a ton of other factors that are involved with preparing a dog for top sport work. If you are skilled enough (whic most people are not) to raise a dog and set a foundation in this animal then after that work is done, you still need to prepare that dog for the big trials, which in itself is a task. WHile some people can take a trained dog to the Nationals, and do well, some of these same people could not take a pup from scatch and do well in a big trial. Even if the pup had eveything that one needs for sport.

Hello Everyone:
Maybe I misread this thread, but are the clubs there "charging" people to train their dogs? Are you talking about:
a. You want Joe/Jane Doe to train your dog to the SCH I level for you.
b. You join a club and they are charging your a lot of $$ for dues?
c. You join a club, but you have to pay extra when your dog is ready to trial?
It just wasn't that clear that is why I am asking. From personal experience, I have to say that the caliber of helpers/training directors and the experience of club members will make a big difference. If you are fortunate enough to belong to a club that places an emphasis on "working" dogs with a strong puppy program that is really fun and probably the way to go (IMO). If you don't have the time or desire for that, I think one of the best things you could do is adopt an older or retired stud/brood bitch that who is like 7-8-9 years old and you could use that dog for some hands on training within the limitation of the dogs age and health. I think dogs like this are very good for tracking and OB (minus the jumps, etc). This will #1 give a new handler some insight on how to handle a full grown adult dog. #2 it will give an older dog a nice home (instead of living in a kennel when he or she has outlasted their ability to produce,etc. #3 It will give the handler a better foundation for future training.
Regards,
-------
Brandon

I see where you are coming from Scott. But Schutzhund while a sport is either a hobby for some,or a business for others.

These prices that you are getting in your area........these are crooks for them to be charging you this amount. I don't really know of many crediable trainers in the NE that for one can train a dog for the top sport, and further more the one's that could, I do not think they charge that.

The question remains how is the dog to be trained? The going price around here is $400-$500/mo for a title. Average around 6 months. So between $2400-$3000 for a green dog to a SchH1.

$10000 for a 1. I think I may move to the NE!!!