Just getting around to reading this one, and so far, it is fascinating.

L.
That book makes more sense to me than any "dogs beginning" book I've ever read.
VanCamp
I see you only have 471 to go for 2000. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Dogs was a very good read. There are some things that I wasn't so sure about in her overall argument about the village proto-dog, but it was well writen and there was obviously a lot of work that went into it.

Very cool explanation of how and why our dogs have so much variety in appearance, size, and shape.

And a very, VERY nice explanation and discussion about why it is stupid to breed dogs for looks, rather than working abilities.

I'm only on the second part right now, where the relationship between dog and humans begins to shift from commensalism to mutualism. So far, a lot of food for thought, especially when it comes to arguments that since dogs are related to wolves, they behave like wolves. I've always taken that idea with a grain of salt, but never have I read such a logical approach. I really like the explanations of how dog social structure is different from wolf pack behavior.
I'm also wondering, do you suppose that coprophagic behavior in dogs is an evolutionary behavior specific to canis familiaris, as the village dog eats human feces as well as other human waste?
I've always been skeptical of the argument by some BARF advocates that use examples of wolf feeding behaviors to say that this is how dogs would eat in the wild. I've always thought of dogs as scavengers more than predators, and this book backs my opinion on that. A dog's natural, evolutionary diet is human garbage.

I believe the most important message by the copingers' is that the predecessor to the dog evolved away from the highly organized pack structure seen in modern wolves. It really bashes pack theory soundly to explain dog behavior quite soundly. It allows dog behavior to be dog behavior allowing for evolutionary changes that may have occured even prior to domestication.
I do get tired of people explaining their dog's behavior by comparing them to wolves. Mostly ends up being lame excuses.

I agree that we can't measure our little fluff balls behavior in, and only in, relation to the wolf pack behaviors. They are most definately different creatures.

One question that did keep popping up in my head about the theory is that there are two dogs, that I can think of, that do have a highly developed pack society and that pack society is VERY similar to wolf pack society and behaviors. African wild dogs and dingos. I wonder where they fit into the theory and what explains their behaviors in relation to our dogs. They are obviously in much closer relation to our dogs than the wolf is, but still maintain a similar set of behaviors.

I also wonder what effect crosses with wolves has had on our dogs as well. As we began to select our own little dogs from the "proto dog" did the wolf have any genetic influence? One thing that springs into my mind is the argument that Maz Von Stephanitz crossed wolves into his original lines to form the GSD breed. I don't know if I believe it or not, but there are folks that do.

I think what is just as important as the main point, Kevin, is the WHY. I feel that the Coppingers make a very solid argument for their case, and explain in a manner that the lay person can follow. Also, in making their argument, they educate the reader about other things, such as the development of the dog's brain in the first sixteen weeks.

Van Camp,
What the Coppingers state about pack behavior, is that it is not a genetic behavior, but rather, is learned in the critical period. The critical period of a wolf pup is over at 19 days of age, while it is much longer for a canis familiaris pup (lasts from 2 weeks of age until 16 weeks of age). Remember that they are all canidae (wolf, dog, dingo, etc.), and that there are some motor patterns that are canine, not just the realm of one or another.

I think it is possible that wolves could have bred with the proto dogs after they had become two distinct animals, but is it likely? I doubt it. I think that there would have to have been pressure on the population due to lack of resources, the same reason you see raccoons during the day, or why we see so many deer in the city limits. I doubt that there would have been that much pressure on wolves from an environmental standpoint back then.

The Coppingers also talk about the practice of mixing wolves with sled dogs, to create better sled dogs. They say that this would actually harm the sled dog genetically, not improve it; and that knowledgeable sled dog handlers know this. The wolf genes would result in an untrainable animal, and the physical conformation is not suited for the type of running that sled dogs need to do. I haven't read anywhere in the book if they mention GSDs specifically, but I'm only halfway through.

Haven't read the book. I need to pick it up....sounds like a good one.

earthdog,

2000-1327= 673 posts to get to 2000. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just some friendly chop busting. My math has been known to suck from time to time. :rolleyes: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by L Swanston:

I've always been skeptical of the argument by some BARF advocates that use examples of wolf feeding behaviors to say that this is how dogs would eat in the wild.

I have also wondered this. This is probably why I haven't made the plunge into a BARF diet, although I have a healthy respect for those who do and their logic behind it.

PS... LSwanston, could you chill with the big fancy scientific words? My pea brain can only handle so much. Does this book have any pictures?LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yes, it has lots of pictures of cute doggies! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

On the BARF diet thing, I do it because I look at it like health food for dogs, not because it is supposed to mimic some sort of wild canid diet. Today I took a whiff of Lucky's ears, and they are NORMAL!!!!! Hooray!!!! I definitely credit the BARF diet for this one.

Cool...I'm there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />