I just want to know if anybody can give me some direction on where to go to find out about breeding WORKING dogs. I want to know how breeders determine which stud is suitable for a particular bitch and how to get consistency in their litters. How do breeders determine which breedings will be good and which ones will be a flop? All info needs to be directed toward an amateur. Thanks

Wanna learn how to find good studs and evaluate them, wanna learn how to breed WORKING dogs?

Try training working dogs in working disciplines for about 5 years. Then you might have a chance of doing it right. How can people think they are breeding "working" dogs when they don't work dogs? How else do you know what to look for and breed for?

There is this faily well known Czech breeder- importer that lives in my area. These jokers go on and on about their working dogs they import and the great pups they produce for REAL work. On and on and on. . . You ask them one question about training and what do they say? They give a line about no good trainers in the US, their dogs are trained by the highest qualified trainers in Europe (never any names) and just heaps of BS. Bottom line, they don't train or work their dogs, they don't belong to any club, nor do they even train on their own. They can only bring dogs out to show them to you and do some simple obedience.

These guys are fakes. One thing I can't stand is people breeding "working" dogs that are not involved in any working disciplines. ANY working disciplines. (herding, protection, Schutzhund, Ring, PSA, NAPD) These are the jokers that -F- up the breed. This is their interest in "working" dogs-

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

That isn't necessarilly directed at you Howie, just a little venting on my part.

While I agree 'somewhat' with Van Camp I need to say that working dogs in various disciplines doesn't always educate you about being a breeder. I know LOTS of excellent trainers that have trained LOTS of dogs--good ones, bad ones and in between but many of them know squat about breeding. You have to be driven to research, read, study bloodlines and decide what characteristics are important to your breed. Find a breeder whose bloodlines you like and pick their brain!! Find a breeder whose bloodlines you DON'T like and pick their brain too!! Learn everything you can about genetics......yah, I know it's boring but do it anyway!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Many trainers look for the dogs that are easy to train in their particular discipline (i.e. Schutzhund)and breed those dogs. While many good dogs can be titled in SchH (or any other dog sport), it's not the scale where a good breeding dog should be exclusively measured. People can get locked into breeding for specific things by only focusing on the activity they are training for when a more well rounded animal may be more breed worthy.

Keep asking questions........the amount to be learned is infinite. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

No it doesn't educate you about being a breeder, but you sure as hell better be able to train and work some dogs before you try to breed them. That is the first step. Then go learn how to breed.

Van Camp - WRONG WRONG WRONG !!! Just because you can train a dog doesn't mean jack. Look at all the good trainers in this country. Where are all the good breeders?

Originally posted by Ed Frawley:
Just because you can train a dog doesn't mean jack. Look at all the good trainers in this country. Where are all the good breeders? Good statement Ed, I agree that you dont have to be a master trainer just to consider breeding. It just depends on what you want out of the dog. I dont know how many times I have seen people breed to a dog because they have a Sch III. They dont care what the dog has produced, they think, Hey! The dog has a title he probably produces good working dogs. Or Hey! Im an awesome trainer, Ive trained this dog to be a Sch III so Im sure he will produce good. Well, HOO RAH for SChutzhund. I honestly could care less about schutzhund. I dont care what kind of routine training the dog has gone through. No offense to Sch. enthusiasts, Im only using Sch as an example. I only care about bettering the breed and breeding dogs that can be trained in real life situations. I want a dog that WILL protect me. Sorry everyone, If I got off topic. I just want some help from experienced breeders in learning how to be a good breeder of WORKING dogs.

Howie,

Take your time in doing as Cindy suggested. She is right on the money there.

As far as choosing a stud... Somewhere else in an earlier thread you told us a little about your bitch. She sounds very nice. Having said that, I will also say that no dog is perfect. Take a careful, honest look at your girl and write down her flaws in conformation, drive, temperment, etc. Have someone else knowledgable in GSDs do the same (without seeing what you had written down first). Don't take offense at what they say! Remember, you want to make a contribution to the breed. Then research and research some more on possible studs. Look for a dog that is strong in the areas your bitch is weak (the dog himself and also back in his pedigree). This will not, unfortunately, guarantee that you will strengthen your bitch's weaknesses, but your chances will be far better. Breeding is always somewhat of a gamble! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Here's a tip: if the stud you like is too high priced, has been in your opinion overbred, or is in some other way out of your reach, try going to a full brother. The genetics will be the same and he MAY actually end up being a better producer.

Also, there really is no way to determine if a breeding is going to be succesfull or not before the pups arrive, especially if one of the dogs has never been bred before. This is where the gamble comes in! You won't know if the breeing is a flop until the pups start working! Some studs are just not suited to a particular bitch no matter how good they are themselves. And, again, there is no way to know that until you try. Just do your best to choose a stud that has proven himself in his work and through his pedigree and SEEMS to be the best match for your girl and hope for the best!

Good luck to you!
Kali <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't know guys...after reading vanCamps post I wonder if it has been misunderstood. He didn't say that people that train and work their dogs are good breeders. All he said was that people that NEVER train and NEVER work dogs have no business claiming to breed working dogs. Furthermore, if you look for a working dog breeder, look for someone who also works his dogs...it doesnt guarantee that you find someone competent but you have a higher chance of finding someone who knows what he/she is doing. Just an impression.

I can't believe it.... somebody slap me!!... I'm going to have to agree with VANCAMP!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> This is gonna kill me!

VC WAS misunderstood - he never said great trainers automatically make great breeders. He said you got no business trying to breed working dogs if you aren't into WORKING DOGS up to your elbows. Without the hands-on experience, you'll never have a full understanding of what characteristics it takes to be a good working dog. Hanging over the rail doesn't cut it. You gotta get out there, do it, find out that what APPEAR to be good working qualities sometimes fail you when you push, put them under pressure, etc. How many would-be "working dog" breeders would tell you that they LOVE the badass, rip-you-a-new-one kind of macho male? That's a typical fantasy for the working dog breeder who DOESN'T get out there and actually train dogs extensively. The reality is often much different from the hype.

BTW, I totally disagree with the statement that going to a dog's littermate will provide the same genes. They're littermates; not twins. The genetic combinations in each dog are vastly different.