Hello everyone. I am new to this board, and I am looking for advice before I purchase my dog, and hopefully throughout his development. I am looking for a dog primarily as a family guardian/companion, and do not plan to compete in schutzhund, ring sport, ect. He will have basic obedience of course, and protection training. I have my eyes set on a GSD from the Czech border patrol lines, and my question is basically this, how do these dogs stack up against other working dogs such as the malinios, as far as ability to actually take on a 200lb. man? The mals seem more intense, are they a harder fight than the GSD? If you all had to leave a dog in charge of your family's protection which dog would you rather have on your side? I prefere the look of the Czech dogs over any other, but I want to make sure that when I am away from home I have a dog protecting my family that won't tuck tail and run at the first sign of physical stress. I have a small female apbt now who's prey drive is off the wall but she is to loving (loves strangers when they come into the house, licks them to death) not to mention too small to be an effective guardian. Also I want a dog with a little more brains (sorry Mallory) than a apbt. I hope I didn't ramble on too much, I just wanted to make my situation clear to everyone, so they can better advise me what my best option is. Thanks in advance.

p.s. I also looked into the beauceron, any input on this dog would also be appreciated.

First question - do you have an honest need for an actual dog that will engage man? You should spend some time and take a serious look at your life style before you answer that question. A dog with the real ability/ temperament to honestly engage an attacker is *much* more rare than you'd think.
Most people's protection needs are fulfilled by a dog that will simply aggressively bark. If you really need more than that, you'll need a trained dog ( as you indicated ) , and the going price sky rockets from there, if you're getting the real thing.

Secondly, if the actual need for true protection is present, how often are you willing to practice with the dog, as that skill is perishable and will diminish without practice/ reinforcement. You're saying that you won't be practicing in the common venues for dog sports that have some type of bite work involved - will you be arranging a weekly ( or at least twice monthly, as a minimum ) session of bite work for personal protection? If you can't maintain the training, getting a highly trained dog ends up a waste.

Just some things to think about that many people selling "protection" dogs don't bother to tell most of their clients.

I am planning on getting the dog as a pup. There is a fellow in my area who trains dogs for pp. As far as the real need for a pp dog, who knows? there may never be a need, but if that need arises with my wife and child at home I would like a dog that when put to the test will pass. That is what I am looking for.

If that's what you're really looking for, a puppy is out of the question then.

Again, dogs that will actually defend their owners are rare, no matter what training you put on the dog. You would stand a much better chance by getting a dog between one and two years old that could undergo the actual testing needed to see if he could perform at the level that you're planning for him.

Getting a puppy in hopes that he could do that would be a real crap shoot there.
You can get a puppy and be happy with the dog that you get ( which is good advice on several levels <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) no matter how he turns out, or you can get a more adult dog that will pass the testing that you require. No real in between there, sorry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Even two hard core ppd monsters bred together may produce a litter of sweet dogs that can't cut the mustard. You just never can never be 100% certain, even with an excellent puppy level evaluation testing.
That's just the truth of the matter. Anyone telling you differently is trying to sell you something...

Good luck with whatever you decide.
Czech dogs rule, by the way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Again, dogs that will actually defend their owners are rare, no matter what training you put on the dog. What's the point of having police dogs then ??
If the same gsd bloodlines are in the police force and in the family home,..why wouldn't the dogs in the home defend their families ?

As for the question on the Beauceron, good ones are very hard to find.

Katie,
I know your question is secondary to your inexperience with dogs regarding protection concepts, so I'll take this as an educational opportunity here:

Patrol dog candidates are selected via testing by knowledgeable trainers before hand so that we know that the dogs have the needed temperament to actually protect their handlers. And the scrap out rate via testing is high. Vendors that provide patrol dogs are constantly complaining about the difficultly in finding dogs that are suitable for patrol work.
It's far harder to get dogs that will actually do patrol work than most civilians think. And a lot of department's patrol dogs don't fit the bill, their training and initial selection was substandard but there's no one on the department with the knowledge to actually know that ( I see that in smaller, rural departments *a lot* ). Or else they're fooling themselves - which I see more often than I'm comfortable with, also.

Do you think Police canines are purchased by a department as a puppy? They're not, by the way.

You seem to be saying that any puppy bred from a lines that has produced some patrol dog will be suitable for Police work or pp work. That's not the case by any means, and any breeder that tells you that their lines 100% produce dogs that capable of either of those career fields is 100% full of it.

Please look through some of the threads in the protection forums for discussions along those lines. There's a lot of information there to educate folks coming from a pet dog background that have never had contact with dogs involved with bite work ( and Katie being an Aussie has even a bigger disadvantage than most folks due to the relatively few SchH clubs in her country. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> )

Thanks Will for explaining that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

You seem to be saying that any puppy bred from a lines that has produced some patrol dog will be suitable for Police work or pp work. That's not the case by any means, and any breeder that tells you that their lines 100% produce dogs that capable of either of those career fields is 100% full of it.

Could it ever be done ?? I mean not a success rate of %100 but %70 or %80 ??...

I know genetics is not exact nor ever fully predictable but with a very strict breeding program and over many generations do you think particular bloodlines can produce service dogs on a more consistant basis ??

I remember reading the german police ( correct me if i'm worng) had a breeding program to produce police dogs from pure working bloodlines and they had a success rate of only %50....

The RAAF in Australia has/or is still currently doing the same thing but they haven't had much luck.....

 Quote:

( and Katie being an Aussie has even a bigger disadvantage than most folks due to the relatively few SchH clubs in her country. )

There are none in my part of Australia <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ..I'd have to go overstate in plane to get to the nearest one....If only the ANKC <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> would accept the sport we'd see more clubs everywhere..in australia..and even more so it'd help if the National German shepherd Council supported it.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

So back to how the Czech dogs compare. Any input there?

Hey Jeff your needs sound alot like mine. I go back to the office alot at night and I wanted one dog I could leave at home and one dog I could take with me back to the office. We now have a Bullmastiff ( my wife's pick)and a German Shepherd (my pick).

We have small children and I was a little worried about how a protection dog would be around the childrens' friends when they where horseplaying. Due to my work schedule I do not believe I could keep up the training necessary to keep the dog ready to do his job. I eventually decided all I really needed a dog for was to alert me or my wife if there was an intruder and scare the crap out of anyone trying to enter the house or approach me when I was leaving work. I figure if someone is willing to come threw a barking/growling German Shepherd or Bullmastiff (assuming she wakes up) then it is going to take more than a dog to stop them.

Accordingly I got a german show line german shepherd from John Henkel at Wilhendorf. At the time I knew not to get an American line German Shepherd, but I did not know there was a difference between German lines. I thought all Sch III were the same. Nonetheless we are very happy with the pup ( he is an awesome pup) and after reading the board feel he is a better fit for our family than a real working dog would have been.

When he reaches maturity I plan on teaching him an alert command so that he will bark and growl if someone approaches me. As for the home I would think that any German Shepherd's (no matter what line) natural territorial instincts would make him bark at anyone approaching our door.

Will he protect me when the chips are down? I do not know, but he should scare any potential bad guys off. If not hopefully all the barking will allow me time to get my shotgun if they decide to come past the shepherd and our
Bullmastiff

In any event I would go to a breeder I trust (especially if it is a working line) give him what you want and tell him your family dynamics and allow him or her to pick out the pup for you. A reputable breeder will be able to pick out the best pup in the litter for you and your family albeit it is always a crap shoot with a pup.