I'm looking for a female to bring to my Otis / Ron grandson in the future. The issues of titling and hip x-rays are on the horizon. If hips don't cert, the whole point of this is mute.

I want to add a degree of physical size and civil sharpness. I would like to find a female with these qualities, perhaps to the edge of extreme to compliment him with the goal of producing better dogs than he and she. The question is this: Short, social Dad x Tall, civil Mom = what percentage taller more civil males / shorter, more social females? Would this type of breeding produce the desired result or will the litter be 50% mirror image of Dad and 50% mirror image of Mom? Should the initial breeding be more moderate and those offspring bred to acheive the final measure? What lines should I look at in regards to acquiring the pairing female? I'm two or more years out but in this instance, a better plan later is prefered over a good plan now.

Gordon From my expiriance you might have to look a little bit deper then that.
Number one is to look at your male and see what is behind him in the way of GOOD PRODUCERS see if any of his brothers or sisters were what you are looking for. Maybe half sister or brother turned out good. Then look at the lines matched and see which dog gave what.
number two when selecting a femail look at the same in her pedigree not just her (the first generation).
If I was you I would look for a femail thet is a proven producer with the type of dog you already have.
Last but not least there is never a guarantie when breeding dogs. you can only meka a asumpition on the individuals and their pedigree also looking in to the family tree give a better indication but not a guarantiee.
Good luck.
Adam

I think there are some pretty good producers in the dog's pedigree. A Ron and Otis decendent?

Mink vom Haus Wittfeld and Karlo vom Peko Haus are pretty cool. . .

So is Greif.

This brings up a good topic. Does anybody think that breeding can be compared to painting?

Can you get the color you want by mixing this type of dog with that type of dog?

Or is it more productive to concentrate on a group of traits and ensure that both male and female have them. For example if you have a very sharp and civil male with social aggression up the butt, can you mate him to a nice willing female and get something in between? Or do you get some sharp, some willing?

Genetics and working temperament is weird. What a pain in the ass.

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp, Robert:

Or is it more productive to concentrate on a group of traits and ensure that both male and female have them. For example if you have a very sharp and civil male with social aggression up the butt, can you mate him to a nice willing female and get something in between? Or do you get some sharp, some willing?

I wonder the same thing. I have thought about this alot while looking for a stud for my female. I seems to me that if you try to "balance out" the qualities in the offspring, you would get a pup eventually that would have the temperment you want. Now, if you were to have a couple years breeding experience under your belt, then you would eventually know all or most of the dogs in the pedegrees of the dogs you breed to, so therefore you can breed only to dogs that have the qualities that you desire. Does any of this make sense? Or am I just talking out of my ass!

The only experience I have in breeding came from a pair of breedings I did in the mid 90's. It was a line breeding on Uran v. WildsteigerLand (3,3)Believe it or not, that litter produced (G2) two PSDs. I produced what I was looking for, at the time. Is line breeding the way to go? I think not because of the Fero mess we are in. I am not comparing Otis and Ron, Mink and Karlo to Fero; there is no comparison in my opinion. My fear is not for today or for tomorrow but for generations to come. Is an out cross neccesary to achieve my goal? Queck v. Kroteeck, another for Leerburg stud dog coincidentaly, is in the 3rd gen on mama's side.

With the litter mate, half brother / sister idea in mind, does anyone have a 50% or better blood relative to my dog, born 13 August 2000 from Schandor Leerburg and Bea v. Dunhill? I was told at the time of purchase that my dog was being held for MI State Police; one lie in the very long list of them from Dun(g)hill . Anyone purchase a Dunhill dog in the last 4-5 years?- I ask the Dunhill question for genetic reasons only and prefer not to get into the legal / moral issues many of us faced for having purchased dogs from the kennel.

Robert's comparison of breeding to painting is right on. My concers are these:
1) In line breeding, the risk of undesired recessive surfacing are exponentially multiplied.
2) Because of moral convictions, i.e. not intoducing a litter that is not a betterment for or to the breed, I do not want to breed a litter to breed the litter..... I don't appraoch breeding with ANY degree of informality.
3)Is out crossing the only way to aviod a Fero situation as Fero is not a line breeding but neither are the "greats".
4) Breeding and genetics are a certainty only in that it is certainly a gamble. My parents often look back at my brother and sister and wonder where they went wrong with me ( Genetics v. Enviroment). I want to stack the odds as best I can.
5) I have been thinking very hard about introducing Gento progeny to the Karlo / Mink/ Queck mix. Gento was noch zu gelassen, if memory serves, that makes me nervous. Thought about adding Grim also.
6) Kevin said in a post some months ago that in order produce 7/8 dogs we need the 10s. He also said 10s are a true pain in the ass, he has been very clear about this. The Fero mess is a direct result of 7/8 to 7/8. I'm looking to produce a 10, something with abundant civil agression, tons of prey, strong defense and handler hardness.

Where are the rocket scientists on this one? I have only two years to figure this out!

Gento vH Larwin was 'a' normal with a ZW of 93. Grim z Pohranicni straze you have to watch out for hips, from what I've heard.

Going for 2 extremes to get middle ground is a bad idea, it will more than likely get you a lot of extremes on both sides of the scale. If you need more size, look for a bitch with dogs in her pedigree that are known for producing larger dogs (in the proper combination), but you want the bitch herself to be more of a middle of the standard.

Yes, when you linebreed, you have a greater chance of bringing out the undesireable traits, but you also have a good chance of bringing out the good traits. The key is to look for dogs that produced the good traits and make sure you use them.

Not sure what you mean about the avoiding linebreeding/Fero, does your dog carry Fero? If not and you don't want Fero, then find a dog that doesn't have Fero. If you don't want a linebreeding, find a dog with a different but similar pedigree so you can get some sort of predictable outcome.

You said you've got 2yrs, so relax a bit, do some research on dogs you like, then come to a conclusion over time. You want to do it right, you've got to do the work, not expect people to just give you the answers, otherwise it's not "your" breeding, but rather another person's via their recommendation (if you went with it). It's good to double check with an experienced breeder, yes, but don't let them make your decision for you.

Originally posted by Gordon Beyer:
Where are the rocket scientists on this one? I have only two years to figure this out! Nope, you can just freeze some sperm if everything works out and then you have your lifetime to breed the male.

Originally posted by Gordon Beyer:

Kevin said in a post some months ago that in order produce 7/8 dogs we need the 10s. He also said 10s are a true pain in the ass, he has been very clear about this. The Fero mess is a direct result of 7/8 to 7/8. I'm looking to produce a 10, something with abundant civil agression, tons of prey, strong defense and handler hardness.

I totally agree with this statement. I think you have to breed to the extremes to get the norm. I also beleive that it just takes a lot of experience to breed good quality dogs. You have to find the traits that you want and breed for them. A good breeder should know the past generations of the dogs he/she breeds.

OK, sat around and played with the Punett square for two days and came to a single conclusion; anything can be produced in the theoretical; particularly the theoretical genetic laboratory. A very small part of my research effort was to solicite opinions and sift through the bullshit. In so far as calling a breeding "mine", I really don't care. If I have a litter based on the advice of an experienced breeder with more knowledge than I have, I'm simply defering to that experience; the breeding and its results, regardless of the deciding factors or from whom the idea is derived, is MY responsibility. My moral obligation and dedication to the breed and its future goes beyond tacking my name or kennel on a bunch of registration papers. Thanks for the help, all.