There is a trainer in town that advertises a level of protection training called the "image dog".On command, the dog is taught to stand between the handler & the bad guy & bark agressively in a 3 bark cadence then stop on command. The dog may or may not bite but the (the bad guy doesn't know)point is that he hasn't been trained to bite.This is all trained in prey drive with on leash ob & CGC as a requirement before pp training begins.I've brought this method up on another board & was slammed because i thought it was a good idea. I said that not everyone needs a dog that bites & sometimes a threat is all that is needed. The board members say that this is a sales pitch & that a dog either protects by biting or it runs.I said, I think it depends on the dog but if someone really wants to take you out, they will & a dog isn't going to be enough to stop them. Well,the discussion went on & on & I was finally accused of not wanting to train my dog. I later spoke to the owner of the board who is also a breeder & trainer & cleared things up, but i'm still not convinced that this isn't a good way to train a dog for those that don't face real danger daily but still want a certain amount of protection from a dog. What do you guys think?
Thanks
Luis

in my opinion, this sounds like a bad idea. i cringed when i read "the dog may or may not bite" ... sounds like russian roulette to me.

the dog should be trained for the work so he knows what he can do, what he is allowed to do, and when his pack leader will allow it.

to me, "image dog" sounds like something intended to be used by a hack to intimidate others. all flash and no substance. and it sounds like something that would give protection dogs a bad name.

sean

I don't see the point of having a dog that barks on command. If you have a large dog, that can be a deterent to some people. If it has it's CGC, then it has to be well behaved around other people. What kind of situation are you going to be in that your dog needs to be trained to bark? If you walk on the streets in the dark, the dogs are usually more alert and would be willing to bark at a suspicious person. Mine's a therapy dog and has her CGC but she would bark if she felt a need to. And at the same time, a quiet dog is sometimes more frightening than a barking dog. We had a really sweet Elkhound that just stared at a door to door salesman. He was the one the salesman was more scared of than the one that wouldn't shut up.

An alerting protection dog is a legitimate alternative to the bite dog.

Especially for dogs that may lack the ability to engage (bite) to protect.


The exercise can be started in prey, but is much better if done in defense with a dog who has the drives to do so.


As a deterent the dog that barks aggressively in a focused defensive manner is certainly more effective than not.

I agree with Elaine that most dogs don't need this kind of training, much less paying a trainer to do it.

For Auster all this would take was mentioning her favorite prey toy (lunge "whip") to turn her into a barking lunatic. If I had a tennis ball to throw at them even better lol.

"Auster, go whip 'em! Whip 'em good!" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Having a bark command can be useful, but the need for all of the formal training is lost on me.

I agree that the average pet owner shouldn't do any sort of protection training, but if this is done then the dog needs to be taught to just bark, not bark and bite if they want.

Forgot to add: the average person doesn't know the difference between prey or defense barking, at least from my experience. People are scared enough of Auster as it is, and she's the typical lab in a GSD suit (only friendlier).

In the PP trade, that's called "a barking alert".
Yes, it's legitimate training ( althought I'd drop the CGC requirement, as it's useless ).
I'm speaking of PP dogs bought by people for home or property protection, not dogs to compete in the PP sports - they're two entirely different animals, most of the time.

For those of you that think it's a bad idea, remember, it's the owner that decides what level of training and deterrant that the dog recieves. As the trainer or dog vendor, the market decides the products for sale. And that's coming from me, "Mr. Dog defends you to the death and beyond" - I think you can all see what I think of canine defense and training by just reading a few of my old posts. My preference is of course a dog that will actually defend it's owner - but not all owners want that level of threat or liability ( actually, I think that the liability would be almost the same for a dog that just recieved the "barking alert" training, if the dog bites someone, a good lawyer would still point to any type of PP training as "provocative" and "dangerous". But I digress <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

And as far as this giving protection dogs a bad name, the "barking alert" actually fullfills 70% plus of what the average person specifically asks for in a PP dog. There is no problem or ethical dilemma if you present to the owner the different levels of training that can be provided, and the owner chooses a low level. it's the owners choice. And by educating them of the choices, you've done your job ( at least the start of it, if they decide for further training or to purchase a dog from you )

Elaine, if you don't see the point of bark training, please re-read my comments in the thread: http://www.leerburg.com/ubb//ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000067
*Any* level of protection that a dog can give you is good. The way the world is today, you can't predict what will happen, so any steps that you as an individual can take to increase your own personal security is for the better.
Had the people in the thread that I linked to owned firearms or dogs, they likely wouldn't be buried side by side in a graveyard. What a senseless tragedy.

It's a dangerous world out there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Better safe than sorry.

Thanks for the replies...Sean, the dog is not trained to bite but the badguy doesn't know...get it? Of course the dilema here is if the guy decided to call the dog's bluff...then what?Robert, if that same dog was bred to have all the physical & mental tools to do this agressive display in defense, & it also had proper bite imprinting as a pup can it later be trained to bite? I ask because maybe that person,that only needed an alerting dog when he lived in a "nice neighborhood",has moved! Can a good dog make that transition? I'm new to the pp dog world & plan on getting one in the future. Right now i'm just trying to get as educated as possible & this is a great forum.The Leerburg videos are a big help also. Thanks...Luis

Guess I should clarify. I think every dog should have a bark command, but learn it in a play/fun sense. Auster knows how to bark on command, but take my word of advice and don't try to teach it by making the dog bark for supper <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

I think that Will made a good point about the liability issue. Is it worth the additional liability just to have a dog that will bark a little bit deeper and do 3 barks in a row? Not for me and probably not for most dog owners either. The dog that average joe will bring in for this type of training probably has weak nerves and any sort of defense work to make the dog sounds more "real" could just make things worse for the owner. For just the right owner and dog it might be great, but it's asking for trouble to try to do this with an average pet.

For just the right owner and dog it might be great, but it's asking for trouble to try to do this with an average pet.


I disagree, and having years of experience training several average pet dogs to do just this I have not found that to be case.

For the housepet it takes a socialized dog, but not really one with strong nerves. The weaker dog can do this just fine and doesn't often suffer any side affects from the training.


Only the really bad fear dogs come apart and you don't train those types.


All you are doing is building on the base instincts that are already present in nearly every dog alive. Most dogs do this on their own, but training will just help shape the behaviors to a more impressive display. Training will give the dog set context in which to behave in this way. Of course you also train a quiet command.

Very simple stuff and very effective IMO.

Luis, this type of training would not eliminate the possibility for bitework in the future as long as the dog has the ability.