I know I am amongst some very serious working dog people here on this board and I don't want to stir up the hornets nest but I do have an honest question that I hope to have answered in a nice way.

I got on this board because I had a doberman and they are in the working dog group - other than that I don't much about ANYTHING. I do know though that people here are against the "show" dog because is ruins the breed. My impression here has been that if a working dog is not aggressive and dominant then it is of no use and people that would breed them to be otherwise are not breeding correct temperments. And also people that would want a working dog such as the doberman, to be otherwise, would also be wrong. Since these type of temperments require a very knowledgable hand that would mean that the general public should not own these dogs. They simply should not be available to the general public except for those who want them specifically for protection purposes and have the know how to handle and train a dominant and aggressive dog correctly. I'm assuming that a dog such as this could potentially be dangerous if not trained correctly.

And then there's me...why did I choose a doberman? Well, in searching for the breed for me I wanted an active dog who would run with me. I wanted a intimidating (but not aggressive) dog that would bark at strangers. Gives me a feeling of security, especially while I'm running in town. I wanted a dog that was sharp, submissive to me and trained easily. I wanted a loyal companion that would bond with me and I also wanted something with short hair as I can't stand long haired dogs in the house. I can honestly say that my dobie is perfect for me!! He is everything I wanted and more. He acts like he's going to tear people apart but is actually very sweet and friendly (although I don't tell everyone that he's friendly). He truly gives me a feeling of protection because he is a barker and a growler. He LOVES to run with me and sit with me on the couch. And he also has been extremely easy to train and has been very submissive to me. He's my best friend. But he is not a dominant and aggressive dog at all and I don't think he'd be cut out for protection work. He is from show lines.

I understand where you people are coming from with being frustrated that the working breeds are not able to do their job as well for you due to the people who are breeding different temperments but what about people like me? Is there room for both types? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Geesh, didnt we all have this converstation a few weeks ago and the thread was closed?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Pauline,
From what you decribe as your requirements for a dog, can you honest say that a black lab would not have been OK for you? They bark at strangers, can look intimidating, etc. Plus your home owners insurance would be far lower and if an accidental bite happens, the court systems are far more forgiving of non-guard breeds.
And yes, I'm one of those folks that thinks there is not room for both types of people. Sorry, but I hope answered in a nice way.

First, I'd have to disagree that the working breeds are supposed to be "aggressive" in the way that I think you're meaning it. They should not be dangerous to own, not if they have a correct temperament. Overtly aggressive - for no reason - dogs are NOT good working dogs. Second, while I absolutely support breeding only dogs with working ability as opposed to just "pretty", I don't for one second believe that the average pet owner can't find what he's looking for in a litter of working pups. Dogs are pack animals, and they rely upon a rank hierarchy for the pack to survive in peace without killing each other. The solution that nature provides is that every litter has more dominant, assertive pups AND has more submissive, beta pups. They can't all grow up to be chiefs - there are actually more indians than chiefs. There has to be in order for the pack structure to survive. So a pet owner would find a very suitable family pet by selecting the lower ranking, less assertive, lower energy pup in the litter.

Lee,
I'm not sure if I agree with you there. I owned Rotties way back in the early 1970's. I think there were only about 8000 in in the entire U.S. back then. Now there are far more than that just in my state. Every backyard here is filled with them, and 90% of those never get *any* training whatsoever. Big dogs cause big bites- a simple fact. Guard breeds cause more bites- also a fact. Most of the people that own potentially aggressive breeds would be better served by owning a sporting type dog.
Working dog breeds belong with people that *work* their dogs. For people that buy dogs because they like the way they look....get a statue of that type of dog.
That being said, I have seen current Rott owners ( Joe Jones In FLA ) that understood their breed well and were a pleasure to watch work their animal. My hat went off to the work he does with his dog.
Don't even get me started on Chows....

Yes, Will I see your side, but then we get into the argument of what constitutes "work" to a dog?

Another, non-biting venue works well for "pet" types. OB, agility (ok, not with rotties, they would get on the table, lay down and refuse to leave it) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> or even living with an active person. NO DOG, reguardless of breeding should be left in the yard, but that is something we all see people do.

I gotta say I am with Lee. The term dominant is overused by dog owners in large, for the amount of info it gives us. Dominant over what? The owner? The family? The other dogs in the house?

If the answer is the first one, the owner... there are some big problems at home...

Pauline, to say you like your watered down dog now is fine. If you ever need him to be more than a bluff, you will understand our pleas to not have dogs that are "all show and no go"

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that working dogs needed to be worked in bite work. I too feel that Obd. or agilty, tracking, herding, etc. all qualify as work.
I just meant to illustrate that working/guard breeds will have a higher genetic potential to bite sometimes in their life. This tends to cause problems for the pet type owners out there.
Dogs trained in bite work actually account for a very small number of accidential bites in society.

A lab??? Hyper, annoying, stupid and very non threatning are a few thoughts that come to mind. No a lab would not suit my needs and I've never been fond of them. Who's afraid of a lab and I'm being very serious when I ask that question?? I had Great Danes for years - yeah they may look a bit intimidating but they are very friendly and they don't bark much less growl and sound intimidating. Neither do labs. My dog now barks and growls and people are scared of him therefore he is doing exactly what I wanted. I have never had a Dane that was as intimidating vocally as the dog I have now.

Lee you hit on what I was asking - thank you for your response. My impression has been that the dogs you guys breed are very hard to handle and and could be overtly aggressive for no reason without the proper training. You are saying that they are not. That answers a lot of questions for me. I guess I am having a hard time understanding the nature of the true working dog and as a result have a hard time understanding why they are bred to be that way - they sound dangerous unruly, and hard headed unless they have expert training. I read a post the other day talking about if you do things wrong with these dogs you better watch out because they could turn on you! What makes sense the average dog owner about that? Why would I want a dog that could turn on me? Is this true?

I just want someone to understand that I sit here and look at my dobie and think - why is this not OK? Why is it not OK for me to own one of these dogs? It is FRUSTRATING to know that there are people who think I shouldn't have a dobie. It breaks my heart. I have never had a more intelligent, loyal,loving, fun dog in all my life. Not only that but I feel a sense of protection with him by my side. And I don't know why I even say anything other than the fact that I wish it wasn't that way. I could be wrong here but it seems like the group of people who actually work their dogs and care about the true working dog temperment is so small compared to the number of people who want to own a GSD or Dobie in a family home. Maybe I am wrong - maybe the group is larger than I think. I do know though that there is no way to stop normal people from owning and loving these dogs so there will always be a group of breeders that cater to the family. I just wish that everyone could get along but that's impossible in our world. So anyway - enough is enough. Each time I make an attempt to gain respect for my cause and the cause of others I lose it.

Pauline

Who afraid of a lab? I saw a Schutz III black lab that was tougher than many GSD's.
And why is not ok? You yourself say that other than knowing than Dobies are in working group, you don't know much about anything. I find that scary when coming from a dog owner with a breed with genetic potential to bite.I hope that what you said was not true and that you studied the breed a bit before you got one.
I base my comments secondary to my being on a county animal control board and being a former K-9 officer. I see a fair amount of bites every week coming from every dog catgory.
Please don't get angry when people don't agree with you. You asked for folks opinions here and that's what you'll get.

Pauline, I find it amusing that you come here, where you already know the general opinion, to argue your point... but when you don't hear what you want to hear you say "enough is enough"... must I remind you who started this discussion?

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I read a post the other day talking about if you do things wrong with these dogs you better watch out because they could turn on you!

Any dog can "turn on you" no matter what the breeding. If you take a rolled up newspaper to a dog and he bites you, you deserve it in my opinion. Most cases of this BS are cases of very poor handling, I do not mean "expert" handling is necessary, but some people believe a dog should take any and all forms of abuse from an owner with no complaint...

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there will always be a group of breeders that cater to the family.

Do you think that working dog breeders do not have families? Do you think that these dogs are so untrustworthy that they have to be locked up all the time? If that is your idea of a working dog, you couldn't be further from the truth.

I think your frustration comes from misunderstanding more than anything, understand that the frustration on this board is heavily biased because the breeders you buy dogs from do not tell you that you are buying a dog that is not true to breed standard, they merely take your money and go to the next show...

False advertising is heavy in the working/guard/herding breeds. Wouldn't you be a bit p'd off if you bought a car thinking it was a race car, then looked under the hood to find a 3c engine that was taken out of an old Ford Festiva?