I was hoping someone could help me out with a question. I have never had this problem. My 5 month old choc. lab is a really stubborn little boy. Yet he has been very easy to train. Up until this point I have been using positive motivation and a flat collar. However, the need for a more effective training collar for certain things has become a necessity. When I tryed to place the collar over his head. He tried to eat my hands!!!! He never growled but fought like heck. So once I got the collar around his neck and cleaned up the blood from his sharp teeth on my hands, I played games with him, rub the collar on his next while praising, did a few commands then removed the collar with lots of praise while he had it on. My question is this. How long should I do this for (only positive things with the collar on)? Should I leave the collar on all day? When can I begin training with corrections with it on? Any advice would sure be appreciated. Thanks Much DAR

Dar,
You have learned a powerful lesson about trying to train only with motivation- eventually, you'll try to get the dog to do something that it doesn't want to do and it will escalate it's behavior until one of you gives up- and with motivational only trainers, it tends to be the trainer that gives up first.
Go back and try to put the collar back on the dog. When it starts chewing on you, scruff it and lift it's front feet off the ground. Repeat that correction as needed until it submits to your placing the collar on. Simple answer to a simple problem.
Sorry if I appear negative about motivational training- I'm not, I'm only against motivational training with no compulsion given if needed. I teach alot of obedience classes and the dogs that come in with strictly motivational training tend to, well, suck.
Those of us that were at the last Bernhard Flink seminar in N.M. will remember a lady with an AKC shepherd who was trained "with no corrections". It started the only dog attack at the seminar and did not listen to it's owner at all.

What kind of collar are you using? If it's a prong, don't place it over the head, unlatch it, place on neck and relatch. It's a very scary looking collar and dog may be worried about getting poked in the eye.

Kim brings up a good question. What kind of "training collar" are you using?

If you were trying to put a prong over his head you were probably causing the pup great discomfort.

Sorry, my bad. I never considered that a person would try to place a prong collar *over* a dog without taking it apart. I haven't seen someone do something like that for years.....
If that *is* the case, I think the person in question would benefit alot from reading Ed's training articles.

Will posted:"You have learned a powerful lesson about trying to train only with motivation- eventually, you'll try to get the dog to do something that it doesn't want to do and it will escalate it's behavior until one of you gives up- and with motivational only trainers, it tends to be the trainer that gives up first."

Will, what exactly does this mean?

Robert,
This is strictly my opinion but it is based on my observations of watching the current phase of motivational only training come into full force in the AKC/pet training world. I dabble still in AKC and I see a fair amount of the folks using motivation training *only* in some some classes. They will give no type of correction, period. If their dog becomes distracted or aggressive, they attempt to redirect it's attention to something else- this works sometimes with low drive dogs but I feel it is in no way reliable. Some of these dogs are the most dangerous animals that I've ever had in class, due to the lack of control.
Again, we had a great demonstration of this concept at the last Flinks seminar- only one dog fight, and caused by a motivational trainer/dog team.
I also observed that the motivation only group tend to be those that have difficultly solving rank issues with their dogs.
I guess what I'm saying that motivation is fine, but sometimes there is no substitute for compulsion for changing an unwanted behavior.

As a reformed softie, I'll say this much: my dog hated the prong collar too, until he learned that lots and LOTS of good things happen with the prong collar on (i.e. going out, ball play, feeding, etc.). The first few times I put it on him, he howled and wiggled. Then we moved to putting on the collar only directly before going out to the big walk of the day. Bingo. One week later, if you touched that collar, he's bonkers because a positive associqation has been made.

So, incorporate the collar into your training and daily regimen. That also means USING it. Don't buy into all this trash about "moto-only" training. If you read a few of Ed's articles (and LOTS of other literature on dog training), what you'll learn is that motivational training will only get you into and through the first phase of how the dog learns. You still have to correct the dog for refusing a command, later moving on to distracting him to "proof" the commands.

To prove it to yourself, teach your dog any command. Then put him in a distracting environment (like your living room with the neighbor's kids over, or your kitchen when dinner is being cooked, or your front yard when the neighbor's dog goes by), and give him the command. Watch dog run away from and totally ignore you. This will happen because you have skipped the correction phase. And it means that you can't even trust your dog at home.

By contrast, a dog who has received fair and consistent corrections with a prong collar has more than food in mind as motivation to conform his conduct to your command. Food, ball, etc. might be enough to motivate him to learn the command. But without corrections, you will never get to the proofing stage, and therefore will never have a reliable dog. That doesn't mean that you need to decapitate him-let the punishment fit the crime.

OK, I'm not a trainer. But I started out with a rescued GSD for a pet. He's now well into distraction phase training for obedience. This means he receives corrections. They are soft ones (to match his temperament), but without them he'd still be dog-agressive and totally untrained.

Good luck. I've trained two chocolates in my family. They are smart dogs-and total spaz cases. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm just wondering what the comments about motivational only training had to do with fitting a collar and asking when correction should start with it on?

I got lost. I don't have anything against corrections. . .read my byline.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Dar, just put the sucker on. . .like you are doing. If it is a prong learn how to put the sucker on correctly. Ed has an article on it in the protection section of his article library.

Yes, leave it on all the time WHILE YOU CAN SUPERVISE YOUR DOG. Play time, normal interaction, and normal training. . .then give it to him.

The goal is to keep the dog as collar UNwise as possible.

Originally posted by Will Rambeau:
... motivation only group tend to be those that have difficultly solving rank issues with their dogs.
I guess what I'm saying that motivation is fine, but sometimes there is no substitute for compulsion for changing an unwanted behavior. Yep.