I found out a few days ago that the father of my dog, is actually not the father. It turns out I was given false information regarding the actual father. I am not blaming anyone at this time, but I am severly skeptical.

I had planned on breeding my dog with a KNPV titled dog, and we felt that the bloodline of my dog from the father was very strong, and would actually increase the value of the pups. The supposed father had a serious working pedigree. Some of you may have even seen my post regarding information on the dog.

Obviously bloodlines alone mean nothing, however, these particular lines coupled with the breeding dogs drives and temperment suggested outstanding potential. Because I have now found that this dog was not actually the Sire of my female, I stand to lose money on the pups. This is blue-sky money (value lost because of the lack of a verifiable bloodline), however, a loss all the same. There may be a possibility of breeding still, however, I can not verify the pedigree of my dog's father, which complicates things.

The breeder I bought the female from offered to refund my money and allow me to keep the dog, but is that enough? Most I have spoken with tend to think it is not, and that I should be compensated for the income I am losing on the lack of bloodline.........thoughts or suggestions on what I should do?

As a side note, for those of you who may know the breeder I am referring to (highly unlikely), I am not placing any blame on them, as this all could have been an unfortunate mistake..... :rolleyes:

I don't get it. Don't you have registration papers for the female?

I disagree with the other advice, you can't look at your dog as income possibility. Dog business just doesn't work that way.


Sounds like a refund is the best you can do.


And by the way, how the hell did that happen and why don't you blame the breeder?

And if the dog is that good and can be registered, why not breed her any way. As long as you are honest about the lines, I doubt that you will lose that much in value on the dogs.

VC and Richard,

Before I purchased the dog, I asked this breeder for information on the parents. The breeder sent a registered pedigree on the mother, but stated the father was a KNPV dog and did not come with any pedigree (I understand this is not so uncommon). I asked for any information available on the father, so the breeder sent me a copy of the dog's PH1 certificate. The dog I purchased was the last of the litter and at a price I could afford at the time (we had just bought a house). I went ahead and purchased the puppy and have been very pleased with her from day one.

My wife's uncle owns a KNPV dog and is a UTAH POST certified judge. He looked the pup over when I got her and said it looked promising. He has evaluated her 3 times since I received her and feels she is a great prospect for police work (my ultimate goal). He also stated he would like to breed his dog to this female.

We have been planning for over a year now to breed these two dogs. Because of this, I set out to find information on my dog's father. I spent a great deal of time looking but ultimately it came down to me placing a post on this board asking for information on the dog. A man from Holland responded and said he was able to locate the father's pedigree on a dutch website. I looked over the pedigree and was very impressed with how strong the lines were. At that point, I was at a point where I could register the dog because I had found the full pedigree. Because of that fact, the puppies potential value went up because we could verify both dog's bloodlines. We felt confident the drives and temperments of the breeding dogs would be enough for the puppies to inherit, but the bloodlines certainly helped. When you get a dog and you know where it comes from, going back 4 plus generations, you are also buying a peace of mind (IMO).

A few days after the man from Holland posted, another man posted and said he knew of the dog, and was in fact good friends with its handler. He gave me the contact information of the handler. I contacted the handler yesterday and we talked for a while. He stated he was under the impression that his dog had never bred. He stated he bought the dog directly from Holland and that the orginal owner had promised there was never a breeding. We also verified it was the same dog. In fact, the PH certificate that was sent to me can be downloaded of this man's website. It was the same dog.

We talked a bit more and questions began to surface. I stated the dog had been in the states working as a police dog when it was bred to my dog's Dam. He asked about the general time frame of that, and it was determined that he was in possession of the dog when the breeding supposedly happened. He stated it never happened.

Getting to the point, I contacted the breeder I purchased my dog from and he said there was a mistake as to who he thought the father was. He supposedly dropped of the Dam to breed with the dog he thought was the Sire, although it turns out it was a completley different dog. I was told what dog was the father, but that the dog was not a titled dog, and that there was never a pedigree for the dog.

I am upset because the bloodline value is shot to hell now. Yes, we can breed on quality alone, and perhaps we will, but the value of the pups will not be as great because we are unable to verify the bloodline of the mother (my dog).

I am not able to paper my dog because of this all.........The story is even deeper than this, though I am unable to get into it at this time.......keep the comments coming....

I want to also state that I am not just breeding for the financial gain. It is a plus, and the mixed up father issue is a concern, but both the other gentlemen and I see the quality of my female, and that is the type of quality that needs to be available. With the other dog's genetics, along with the qualities my dog will offer, we feel the puppies will be a product that will work hard and produce results from the very beginning of their working careers. I don't want to sound like I am a money hungry SOB, although the financial aspect of it all must be considered. :rolleyes:

Why not just be happy the female will turn out for the intended purpose and spay her? If you do it right, there is no way you can make money breeding a female, much less one without papers. Hip and elbow checks alone will run about $300 (with anesthesia) and then you have extra food, time off of work, vet visits, maybe an emergency c-section, etc. Then you have the headache of finding homes for these dogs. They can't be sold as pets or to sport homes (unless you can find someone that wants to give up the hope of competing at top levels) so that leaves you with very few options. You might end up raising several dogs until they are a year or older to sell them as green dogs. You don't want to know how much that will cost. And then what do you do with the odd pup that isn't suitable for work or pet? keep it? sell it as a guard dog ?

If you are unhappy with her, then sell her. If you want to make money, start teaching obedience classes.

I am extremely happy with my dog and have no plans to sell her....let me be absolutely clear about that! She is a great dog, and has great potential. As far as selling future puppies, the gentlemen who would be providing the stud dog has serious connections with buyers, and feels confident we would have no problem selling the puppies. I think his idea was to sell the dogs to those planning to utilize their working ability, rather than for competition or sport, etc.

One thing that I have been considering is to keep the puppies for 8-12 months and develop a foundation so they could be sold as green dogs, though I don't know that I would have the time....this is still something I am considering. Obedience training is something I am thinking about also, as there is no training done around here except for at petsmart.

One additional offer the breeder made was to provide me a puppy out of Holland with KNPV lines, and parents with Met Lof scores. This would also be a puppy with verifiable pedigree, and documentation. I would be able to contact the breeder in Holland and basically specify what I wanted, and the breeder here in the states would make sure I got that pup at no cost. I would obviously keep my dog and continue to pursue the PSD certification, and would use this new female pup for future breeding. It is more likely that it would be better all around because this new pup would be papered in some way. I am not so worried about the AKC papers as I am some sort of legitimate and verifiable pedigree on the dog. Documentation is great so long as it is legitimate and useful. I am not particular as to whether or not the papers are from Holland or AKC....perhaps this additional option is the way to go? Any thoughts?

It sounds like you are going to have a serious problem with the AKC. You can't just show them pedigrees and they register a dog. If the puppy was born in the US you will need to show that both parents are AKC registered. There is a specific process the breeder has to follow to make that possible. If the dog was imported, then you will need the certified export pedigree from the governing recognized breed organization in that country to submit to AKC.


Maybe I'm reading wrong, but it doesn't sound like you are up to speed on what exactly it takes to register with AKC.

VC,
That is correct, I am not real familiar with AKC registration procedures. I hadn't initially been concerned about it when I purchased my dog, but over time the paper issue grew on me as we considered breeding. I was under the impression that I could have obtained something from the KNPV regarding the dog's (my dog's father) pedigree to submit to the AKC. The mother was AKC. Unfortunately it doesn't matter now because my dog's real father (sounds like this should be on jenny Jones ) is out of Holland and a pedigree isn't obtainable according to the man who imported him. The dog was imported specifically to be trained in the states for police work. In the mean time I will continue to focus on PSD certification with my dog.

What is most likely going to happen is a couple of Utah Post Instructors/Judges are going to get involved. The breeder who sold me my dog is going to get me another puppy out of Holland with KNPV lines. The Utah I/J are going to verify the kennel information and determine whether it is a legitimate operation, then they will verify the puppy's pedigree, medical history, x-rays, and of course make sure there is a paper trail for all of this. Hopefully the end product will be a papered puppy for breeding purposes........I realize I may sound a bit uneducated at times regarding this all, and I am at times, but rest assured a professional is guiding me through this. He is letting me handle it but offering wisdom to point me in the right direction. I am learning from my mistakes. By the way....the breeder who sold me my dog should have verified who the father was going to be before the breeding ever began......if that was in fact a simple mistake.....I have a hard time believing that a mistake of which dog the father is could have been made....it is not just something that happens by chance. I wonder if I wasn't just told the father was this specific dog to make the puppy look good, to enhance the bottom line. Thankfully I lucked out and got a great dog.....just angered I wasn't told the truth in the beginning<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Drew,
I feel for you and the situation you're in. FWIW, I don't think I'd go back to the person from whom you got your dog, hoping that they'll get this one right.
On the other hand, in Mals (especially KNPV line) I wouldn't get too caught up in the pedigrees, especially from 3rd party indiviuals who may or may not know the dogs involved. The majority of KNPV dogs are xMH and xHH, unregistered and unpedigreed (no FCI recognition) malinois and/or Dutch Shepherds.
I've been told about Malinois, 'Believe half of what you hear and less than half of what you see on paper'.
Guy and Judith Powell at Seven Pines Kennel in TX may be a good place for you to start when looking into KNPV mals. Hope this helps.

John