Hi all,

I spend a lot of my time solving other people's dog problems and yet find myself stuck with one of my own dogs, a 2 year old GSD. She's got great linage with many ScH3's in her background, very healthy and thinks a bit too much.

I got her at a year as a very low confidence animal - living with a single female owner in a wealthy household, hardly ever socialized around men until one day the lady decided to send her away for 6 weeks for 'training' with a guy who proceeded to wail on her for the entire time.

I have spent the last year building her confidence through socialization and constant attendance at training classes with the dog training school I work at. Eventually she started into bite work after a lot of prey building and recently found her bark - peaking at biting on a fully suited decoy. Since then over the last 6 weeks she has shown little-to-no interest in biting and has regressed back to a state of non interest in anything other than prey rag and soft bars with only myself working them.

It seems to have all the signs of a bad experience leading to a shut down but I cannot for the life of me see what it was - the full suit bite was a very positive experience with a highly experienced decoy and a lot of praise and no compulsion.

Anyway, I have decided to take all correction away including prong collar on leash and start back into a lot of fun play and prey work with toys and retreiving. I'd llike to get her focus up off the ground and directly toward my face as she seems to be drifting a lot too. I've decided that only I will be handling her in protection from now on - rather than my wife who would handle her before.

Any input would be appreciated with suggestions regarding this situation. I'm hoping that the focus work and prey only approach will build her confidence - although I am worried that she will work less for me in protection - taking a step back thinkiing that I am dominent enough that I don't need protecting.

Thanks for any constructive input.

Joel - San Diego, CA

Well, my gut reaction is to say let her be a pet. Even if her pedigree is all SchH titled, doesn't mean she has what it takes.

Without knowing more of what steps were set up with the dog prior to the suitwork, I would say there was no stress release with the suit. For a low confidence dog like this, winning the prey item is a BIG confidence builder. With a suit, that just isn't an option.

What were you planning to attempt to train this dog for? Sport? PP?

I had a dog similar to what you describe and to add he was also incredibly soft. Sometimes realizing that the dog is not cut out for work (even though he had GREAT prey drive for OB, as ED and Cindy could attest) he just didn't have the total package to be a great working dog. He came from a shelter and when I brought him home he would RUN away from a ball or toy, acting as if I were going to hurt him. I was able to bring a lot of drive out of him regardless of his past, but he was still the same dog under it all. Learn what you can from her, but don't put her in a position that isn't fair to her either.

Thanks for the reply.

I don't want to compete with my dog - or I don't have any specific demands, if she shows a talent in a direction then sure I'd pursue it with her but first and foremost she is a family dog.

Building her confidence is the most important aspect of the training I am doing with her, and for a good 6 months she went from strength to strength.

Of course we see dogs plateau all the time in their training, I was just confused as to why she actually seemed to regress rather than hit a flat spot in her development.

So my plan is to re-inforce a 'constant win' regeme, back to rags and bite bars and encouraging the bark.

I was wondering if anyone had any tricks for encouraging the 'watch me' handler focus other than food treats and compulsion. She is too soft for the compulsion and is ultimately lacking focus in a distracting environment so treats/toys don't really do much.

Now before someone jumps in a says "Can't be done, she's a low drive dog" I would say that it is obvious that she is low drive but that doesn't change the fact that she is the dog I have and will continue to have, and will therefore continue to work with - so the practical info is what I am looking for, not the excuses to just get another animal.

Joel

Originally posted by Joel Griffin Dodd:
I was wondering if anyone had any tricks for encouraging the 'watch me' handler focus other than food treats and compulsion. She is too soft for the compulsion and is ultimately lacking focus in a distracting environment so treats/toys don't really do much. If you are convinced that her interest/drive for any kind of food/toy/ or positive motivator is insufficient to keep her focused under distractions, then negative reinforcement is your only option left. And NO DOG is too soft; you just have to adjust your training to the dog. The lightest of touches on a dead ring fursaver, that other dogs wouldn't even notice, may be all she needs. Or she may only need a soft verbal correction and zero physical intervention. The key is to use negative reinforcement CORRECTLY - say, for instance, you're simply having her sit at heel position and give you attention and she looks away. Do NOT just give a single light correction and stop and then wonder why it doesn't work. Whatever aversive stimulus you choose, you apply it continuously (and very lightly AND totally emotionlessly) until she looks back at you, and only then do you cease and reward. You have to continue the aversive stimulus until she achieves success, so she learns how to turn it off, how to control it with her behavior. Once she makes the connection that she can turn it off by looking back (or avoid it all together by not looking away), she will not be stressed by the situation because she is in control. No matter how timid, submissive or scared she appears when you initiate the aversive, you can't stop until she is successful. If you do stop, you have just taught her that acting fearful and submissive and avoiding you is the solution to her problem, and she will be more likely to repeat that behavior in the future. Just be sure to select an extremely mildly irritating form of aversive stimulus, one that is appropriate for her temperament.

OK I hear what you are saying there, an almost passive, balanced physical correction or redirection toward the correct position then released and rewarded. Repeat.

I've noticed that she pulls down into the collar - even on a pinch when corrected, does anyone know of any effective head positioning techniques to get her looking up? I can pull the collar up high behind her ears, which gets body elevation up but she still tends to drop her chin, which of course gives no opportunity for eye contact.

I've started into holding freeze dried liver in my mouth and dropping it from there when she looks up on a 'watch me command' but when it drops she hits the floor lookng for it.

Joel

You can never physically force attention; physically restraining her head or pulling her neck up with the collar will not teach attention. Opposition reflex is probably causing her to try to pull against you. You have to capture the behavior and reward it, meaning that when she offers it, you mark it with a conditioned reinforcer and then follow that with the primary reinforcer. If this is all greek to you, you should hit the archives under obedience cause this has been discussed many many times, with step by step ideas on how to teach attention without force.

Thanks that is very helpful I will take a good look. I was at a PSA seminar over the weekend and listened to some of the ideas on focus which definately seemed to hint at using correction combined with reward to maintain the upward focus.

It sounded interesting but i just don't want to use a jackhammer to crack an egg.

Joel

I want to touch on the protection aspect of training. I think it is an ethical question as to when you NEED to stop training certain dogs. It isn't about working with what you have, it is a question of not putting a dog into the possition at all who doesn't have what it takes to enjoy being there. Corrections in obedience are one thing, but putting the wrong dog into a situation trying to do any type of protection work, even playful bitework, whatsoever is a mistake IMO.


I'm not exactly making comments about your dog specifically, not having seen it. I'm just making a comment in general that I believe is important.


Lee's advice, BTW, is always good. Well. . .almost always. . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Joel wrote:" Now before someone jumps in a says "Can't be done, she's a low drive dog" I would say that it is obvious that she is low drive but that doesn't change the fact that she is the dog I have and will continue to have, and will therefore continue to work with so the practical info is what I am looking for, not the excuses to just get another animal."

Hi Joel,
I think Van Camp and Deanna made some very wise remarks and IMO, they are something you should consider. It also sounds like it is more than just a situation of low drive with your dog but I'm only going by what you have written here. There is no "practical info" that can make your dog anything but what she is.

Referring to your quote above, my response is this: Simply because the dog is the only one you have is not an excuse to continue working her in something that she is clearly uncomfortable doing. I think sometimes we get caught up in what we want to accomplish and forget what is best for the dog. While it sounds like you certainly care about this dog, I am not sure you have really considered if continuing to insist that she do protection is the right thing to do.

Asking a dog to be what she is not capable of is IMO, not the "right" thing to do. While your approach may be what you think is humane, it still does not remove the stress the dog is feeling when asked to do things she clearly is not cut out for.

I hope you are not offended by my remarks but in reality there is no other way to look at it. Your dog is who she is and it sounds like you have accomplished making her the best she is capable of being.....and that's my point.

I know she is only 2 but a sudden change in her attitude might warrent a CBC complete blood count. If anything, while she's still young and you do get her back up to what you want, it's a good tool for future medical diagnosis if needed.