Everything I always read or heard about in selecting a puppy for PSW or SchH was to test for solid nerves. The 2 prior pups before my current one had nerves of steel. You could not ask for anything better. One ended up being locked in prey. Yes this was due to the protection training of a substitute helper but this helper trained hundreds if not thousands of dogs and is known for working dogs that entered and won the World. The other is a very high SchH point dog that I would not be surprised to see in the nationals. But this dog lacked some heart. Now my current 11 week old pup is not as solid in the nerve area. If you sneak up on him at night he will alert bark and then after investigating will run right up into your arms. Recently I took him out on the shoulder of a busy highway. Something I did to both prior pups with absolutely no response at all. It was like they were in my kitchen. As soon as my current pup left the car I could see his ears pop straight up. His tail went supper high. He was on the edge of fight or flight. I threw a tug to see how he would react. He ran after it. Bit it with a pretty solid grip and started retrieving it when a truck ran by honking it’s horn. He then countered into a super full mouth grip. It is way early but if this means that when he is stressed that he will react with more aggression as a fuller and harder grip. I’m done with the solid nerve dogs! Give me one with a little
unsureness or sharpness every time. What does the board think?

I aggree with you, great post! The type of dog that you have will most likley be one of the best animals that you have owned. I too prefer a dog with a little sharpness and this is something that most GSD lack. These are type of animals that will most likley become great working dogs in the right hands.
Many might get confused with what you have described and a dog that has really bad nerves, and think that they are one in the same. The GSD should be a little bit aware of what is going on around them. By the way what bloodlines does your dog come from?

The Sire is Shan vom Leerburg and the Bitch is Umsa Vom Leerburg. This is a 2-2 line breeding on Otis vom Jacobiner Schloss and a 3-3 line breeding on Mink Vom Haus Wittfeld. This dog should be hard as stone. While walking yesterday a pit bull came running out of nowhere attacking my dog. Well I had to hang Kai in the air swinging him around to the other side and in my arms. At 11 weeks old this might be a very traumatic event. He just grunted a little from being chocked out and then when I set him down he jumped into high prey and grabbed and shook my pant legs. If he was older I think he would have turned on me for that.

The behavior that you are relating where the dog becomes stressed and then unloads into prey is very much a hand me down from Otis. You must be careful of this. Do not allow him to unload on you! In fact be careful to begin to train such a dog to hold his drive. Do very little formal bitework early with this dog. Work on other aspects of the work first. I am very familiar with this bloodline.

Kevin please forgive my ignorance. But can you rephrase or explain the sentence "In fact be careful to begin to train such a dog to hold his drive." Do you mean by not protection training this will hold his drive or do you mean to train him to hold his drive. If so how? Thank you for your time and concern.

Hi Kevin,

It's Cindy. I had to chime in here. I didn't understand what you told Vince either. I understand the problems that you are trying to prevent here (Vince, I have an Otis daughter) Your wording just was a little confusing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Let try to explain:
First, though many dogs from this bloodline have high drive and low thresholds to prey drive, they often have problems with unloading immediatly any way they choose.
I have made a habit with these critters to first, develope some taboos that i don't recomend with some other lines. The first one is biting me is off limits, and the second one is biting other dogs is off limits. The first day these show up when the dog is trying to unload in one of these ways his/her world caves in. that's the first thing. I also teach them to play with a tug and handle stress off a back tie. I do this by fist placing the pup on a flat or fur savor (dead ring) collar. I work the dog in prey drive having the dog pursue a tug on a line. The dog learns first to pursue the tug and grip the tug. To hold it firmly in their mouth and not chew it, or ground it. They must also learn how to release it calmly out of their mouth then return to pursueing. This may sound like you are doing bitework but you are not. Here the dog is learning to focus its prey and play drives.
While I'm doing this I que in the obedience and tracking with food.......even if the dog likes the toy better, I need the dog to think quite clearly and particularly some of the more hectic dogs in this line have a hard time doing this if you mis decoy work into their training too early and it bleeds into all the work.
When the dogs do begin into work (police or schutzhund) the focus is on the bark and guard from the very earliest days. You will need a knowledgeable decoy otherwise the dog will become hectic and confused with resultant lousy grips. Focus on the barking and do not do grip develpment by doing combat with the dog over the sleeve (again this will cause problems with the grip and subsequently with control). As the dog matures you will see fight drive develop and must be responded to by the decoy, prey barking ignored. Here is where the dog is learning to hold itself in fight drive. You have already taught the dog to hold itself in prey drive and play drive while the handler worked the dog on the back tie.
I have had the good fortune to work with Otis as a young dog (1 1/2 years), several other Mink progeny (including Lewis Malatesta's littermate Lando Malatesta), and I have sevceral Otis progeny that have beeen and are in my club or with law enforcement. I believe this bloodline will contribute greatly (my current project is a 10 month old male whose sir is my patrol dog and dam is an Otis daughter) to the GSD in regards to working character. Yet, I see too many people work these dogs into frantic prey/play/defense mixtures of bitework when they must be seperated for the dog to become calm, confident, comfortable with the control, and still deliver the intensity in barking and hard firm grips.
I hope this isn't too confusing...it is a very condensed version of the work I do to accomplish my goals and doesn't nearly represent the full spectrum of adjustments that might be necessary in dealing with dogs of medium to low thresholds and good fight drive and extreme prey drive not to mention males with a bit of rank thrown in.

Kevin,
Thanks for outlining that. I have an Otis daughter, and see alot of what you talk about. She quickly becomes hectic and thus chewy. I have also determined that the grips become poor when she comes in season, thus will leave her in the kennel from now on at that time. She is a wonderful dog, but surely must be worked properly in both obedience and protection.
Sue

I am really glad this subject is being discussed. My young dog is sharp. His nerves are not as solid as his half brothers therefore he lacks some confidence in the bite work that I would like to see. He's fine in a social setting. He's indifferent to people. I am really concerned this is going to be a problem in my training. I like everything else about his dog. His obedience is super and his tracking is nice. He bites hard but not always full due to his nerves. I know the dog needs prey work. I like this dog so I would never sell him but I am in a dilema as to whether continue SchH training. How much confidence can be "trained" into a dog that has some unsureness

Kevin,

Your description of dogs with "high drive and low thresholds to prey drive" which "often have problems with unloading immediately any way they choose" and how to handle these dogs in training was really good and very constructive IMO. Thank you.

I have one follow up question. When you say:

"As the dog matures you will see fight drive develop and (it) must be responded to by the decoy, prey barking ignored. Here is where the dog is learning to hold itself in fight drive."

How should this fight drive be responded to by the decoy in this type of dog? And, how does this response by the decoy help teach the dog to hold itself in fight drive?