...would your working dog attack or protect without a command or would you have to command it to attack or protect???

the topic was closed and i really didnt get an answer to my question...could someone answer this for me please.....

i guess what i am thinking is that most of the dogs that are trained would only respond to a command to do what there were breed for???/

example... let's say you are walking down the street and someone got you from behind and gaged you...would or could your dog attack/protect???? Would the dog or dogs protect its pack leader??? is there a training for this type of attack??? or is this a genetic issue???

There are only three instances when a PPD or PSD should attack/bite.

1--If the dog is attacked.

2--If you are attacked.

3--When you give the attack command.

Any protection dog worth their salt will bite, without command to protect themselves or their handler. Item #3 speaks for itself. If they didnt, I would evict them from my home pronto. Dogs are not bred for specific commands, they are trained to do certain things desired by their owner if they have the genetic ability. Just because a dog is a Rott, Mal GSD etc. does not mean they will bite or protect.

Howard

When looking at various kennels of german shepherds many breeders ( show, pet and work)state that there dogs are `naturally protective' without any bitework. But how many GSD's are really like this? ones that would protect their master? This is one of the traits GSD's, Rotts, Dobes have become famous for but how many can actually do it these days?

And whats more many people will say a dog is naturally protective when it just barks at visitors?? Many sharp dogs with weak nerves will do this won't they, though? so what does barking prove? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I thought that the bitework gives the dog confidence for a real situation, the dog is learning the skills to possibly use in a real situation. I think a strong neved and protective GSD would come to the defense of its master, but with training it increases the chances that the dog will defend you when someting serious does happen. Perhaps i'm wrong but that is what i have learned so far.

I think Howard summed it up quite well.

Katie,

Only a small percentage of dogs from the breeds you listed would react in the manner Howard described.
Breeders making claims of 'naturally protective - no training needed' are generally full of crap, especially if they do no protection training or have earned no protection-type training titles with their dogs.
Also remember, you can buy a dog out of Psycho vom Serial Killer bred to Nutcase von Maneater and its no guarantee that the dog will be 'naturally protective'.

Katie:
"so what does barking prove?"

Barking acts as a deterrence. Most bad guys are looking for victims, not sparring partners. If the bad guy thinks that you have adequate defenses, he'll find weaker prey. A dog that *only* barks is much like an unloaded firearm - the bad guy ( unless mentally ill ) isn't going to be thinking "well, maybe that big barking dog won't bite me" or " maybe I'll get lucky and that Glock in the guys hand is unloaded". That's not how the human mind works, we're hard wired to react in dangerous situations by going into fight-or-flight. Bad guys, since they're the one initiating the event, will almost always retreat in the face of a strong defense.

Also Katie, much of the bitework that is done on most dogs is done in prey mode and is fun for the dog. It's doesn't necessarily give the dog confidence in a real world situation.


David,
Some of the reality-based protection sports have scenario's dealing with rear attacks. American Street Ring uses this type of attack right off the bat in it's entry level event. The handler is at least 15 yards from his dog, which was placed in a down/ stay. A perp walks neutrally by the handler a few times, and then attacks the handler from the side or rear. The dog must engage the decoy without command from the handler.
Fetz loves that event <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I've had several occassion when without a command my dogs have attacked a single person and a group that were either becoming aggressive or approaching mencing close without me noticing them.

In these situations I was most thank full and felt they were well worth their kibbles and bits.

Several times while alone camping in the woods 5 miles from nearest Campsite and 100 miles from a city and a couple of times around the house.

While unloading my Jeep and listening to music I was approached from behind by this stranger carring a long heavy stick, but he didn't see the dogs on a down under a shade tree, near the Jeep. They intercepted him about 6 foot away, he dropped the stick back peddeling away from jumping snarling jaws on either side of him. I was able to call them off with a command and send him on his way.

Another time when three men were disputing my retrieving my trout line. The big guy closest to me had the front of his shirt torn off, as he was back peddling by the male GSD. The dog spit out the shirt and went in for more. If I had not called him off there is no doubt that he would have bitten the guy. The Rottie went after the other two, one turn tailed the other was frozen white faced. Called off on a command, the difference in trained and (natural instinct no verbal on and off, you got to go get them). Needless to say end of argument.

To do this they broke the down I had left them in at my campsite about quarter of a block away. I left them because I didn't want the female trying to swim in the lake. When they heard us arguing here they come like a bull through a china shop. Saved me from having to open a can of whip a$$ on these guys, or most likely getting my a$$ whipped, 3 on 1.

My dogs have yet to bite anyone in a street situation. Thank god. But they are willing to protect on command or no command. Making the decision themself to help, so far he has only been wrong once. On this occassion (he was young then) did a bark and hold (not really an attack). On this guy that lookde like he was hiding, behind a car parked in front of my house but really only bent down to pick a ball. My bag.

They have had continuous brush up classes in PP training and feel its their job to protect. But going by the training on this board I know we are still rookies trying make the grade. Like I've said the only thing stopping these pupils is their teachers/Me lack of knowledge.

I think a lot people confuse watch/alert dog behavior with protection behavior, or they think that watch dog behavior implies protection behavior. As far as a dog attacking without command, dogs are good at non verbal cues. If your body is experiencing a fight or flight reaction, a dog should be able to pick that up on that and respond to it. Some dogs may respond by barking, some may respond by running away and some may respond by coming to your defense. You might think you know what you dog will do, but you won't know for sure till it happens. It is the same with people on the battlefield, how you think you will react in combat and how you will actually react may be two very diffent things.

I personally believe my dogs will defend me, but I don't rely on them for that. I have the tools to defend my self, now if the dog give me an alert that trouble is coming well that is just a bonus.

Thats probably true but i think some dogs like to fight and think its their job to protect. I say this because you can see it in some dogs.

There has been occassions where the male GSD has gone into protection mode when defended my/its vehicle. He once ran out and circles this ex-con how had tried to open the door my jeep. The guy froze and the dog circled him twice shoved with his muzzle, before I could call him back.

The ex-con stated "He wanted me to move so he could bite me, didn't he. I wasn't gonna move a muscle". He was an mechanic that helped me bring the vehicle home. And maybe it wasn't a warranted approach but it sent a message, this not the place to come shopping since your jobless.

This is not the same as holding a bite after getting stabbed but I have no doubt that he would bite. And from what I have seen if you hurt him, he wants to hurt you back.

Personally if someone stabbed my dog while on the bite, protecting me on my property. He's got a pissed off 6'2" 225lb man holding 40s&w 96 in his face now, seeing blood.

We are a team, if he hurts my dog while he is protecting me, he just stabbed me. In or on my property, I'd be pissed and he got a weapon in his hand.

Thomas:
"I think a lot people confuse watch/alert dog behavior with protection behavior, or they think that watch dog behavior implies protection behavior."

BINGO!!

Thomas just verbalized very nicely what many of us have been saying, or trying to say.
Nice job, dude - that sentence would darn near be worth using in your signature! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


And Don, I feel the same way that you do. My dog gives me enough time to draw my weapon, and I'll take care of it from there ( not that he won't also, the over-eager bite machine :rolleyes: )
And if I've drawn my weapon, I'm already pissed. And if someone has badly injured my dog, well...it's not going to be pretty.

My SAR/Schutzhund GSD Thunder, is becomming an excelent watch/alert dog. I don't want him in a serious protection mode cause that's what my JRT is for. If some idiot is still around after Thunder does his impressive "display", I like a tiny dog for protection cause I'm less apt to hit him with my 9mm when I start shooting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />