How much are AKC or other papers needed for a stud?

I have one that's a great dog but can't have papers because his line is police service dogs and they weren't suppose to be bred but the officer that owned his grandfather bred him anyway because he was going to die from accidentally ingesting some drugs he detected and the officer wanted pups from him before he died.

Why is your name Alan Bliven and the owner of the website you have linked is someone else?

Is that your website or are you just linking to someone elses website? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Anyway, I wouldn't breed the dog unless he was so incredibly outstanding in the work that it would just plain be a sin against the GSD breed to lose the genetics.

But I seriously doubt that is the case, so I'd say don't bother. Nobody worth a salt is going to breed a female worth a salt to a stud dog without paperwork. Nobody else is going to buy the mutts from the breeding.


There are a handful of people that breed mutt shepherd dogs for service and sport work in this world who do breed nice dog's though. For a PSD or some pure working sport dogs do papers matter?


I have a crossbreed myself (nearly the same thing as a no paper mutt GSD), no papers. The dog is outstanding though, thats the reason I bought him.

There are tons of nice males in this country. In most clubs there are 2 or 3 nice males whose owners want to use for stud service.

I have 2 very attractive females...looks and pedigree. An intense sable bitch with drives out the ears that gets alot of attention. I get calls from Florida, from California, from Texas, OFFERING me the services of someone's great male. I got a call last week from a police officer who has a retired dog which is the "best GSD anyone has ever seen". He had seen a dog and met the owner of one of my earlier litters, and just had to avail me of the opportunity to breed to his dog since I had produced such a nice GSD.
The dog did not have AKC papers of course, no one bothered 6 years ago to get them when the dog was imported. He doesn't have a clue what he has or needs to paper the dog. And of course, he has never bred him, but he is such a great dog, he knows I should want to breed my titled koer class 1 female to him.

Most males, even with papers, do not get used at stud. And many who do, are breeding local pet females for Sunday newspaper ad pups. A male has to be absolutely outstanding to get breedings outside his own small circle of club contacts - at least of quality females. In this country, it seems there is so much kennel blindness, so many people get a female to breed their own male to, and voila' - instant breeder!

The owner of a good quality female has their pick of any male, anywhere. I look to breed to the best possible male I can find, with credentials and qualities to complement the female. I would not look at an unpapered male for a service no matter how good. There will be one just as good with papers and credentials around the next corner who will complement my female.

I see your point in keep everything correct and having a paper trail to prove what you got is real authenic.

But unpapered dogs do breed and produce outstanding working dogs, PPD and Patrol dogs. Form what I can see just at a glance at the open martket a puppy from a papered couple would bring $1000-2k+ and unpapered $250-$400 both with no real garantee that the dog will work out.

Obviously there is a market for both sides of the
equation. My question besides producing a higher dollar puppy, is there an appreciable average of papers dogs that title over unpapered dogs in most Patrol dog and Street dog training/sports.

I know in Schz the papered dogs rule but what about in the French ring, KNPV, Mondia ring and such?

The Sunday pet ads have tons of puppies...all breeds, not GSDs only...AKC registered for $400 and up. There is a nearly constant ad running in this city - "purebred GSDs, no papers, parents on premises, wise and wonderful" The shelters are full of purebred dogs, lists constantly are shouting for help...sometimes for 6 month old puppies who are too much for their owners. Puppies selling for $1000 and up are usually from parents with credentials in competition.

Unless YOU have a track record in competition, unless this dog performs in some venue in an outstanding manner, unless you have a ton of people handing you deposits on puppies and they are experienced handlers who see value in the dog, and unless you have people beating down your door to breed to him...what is the point of adding to the overpopulation of "purebred" dogs? I can find you plenty of purebreds in shelters for free. It makes no sense, no matter how good the dog is, to produce puppies. People who are looking for a bargin puppy at 200 bucks and don't care about papers are not people who want a working dog to comepete with anyway.

JMHO

It is extremely hard to find good, honest, responsible, knowledgable puppy owners with working experience. The majority of experienced people who want competion dogs do not want to spend a year raising a puppy who is a crap shoot, they want one ready to finish and compete with. Not all, but probably 75%.

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
Why is your name Alan Bliven and the owner of the website you have linked is someone else?

Is that your website or are you just linking to someone elses website? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Sorry for confusing you. Tom (Iron Dog Kennels) and I are good friends and I built and maintain his site for him and I was linking to the site. I have removed it from my signature.

I had wondered the same thing about the website, as it has Alex listed as a stud there, but Alan has stated that Alex is his dog in previous posts. Odd.

Many departments have strict controls on the breeding of their Service dogs, and for good reason. It can be a PR nightmare when the offspring of an actice duty PSD are biting people in a pet situation - the press gets hold of that info, and bingo, second page news in your local newspaper. It's not pretty, and a news organization that has it out for local law enforcement can spin that story into something ugly.

And they bred a dog that was dying from drug ingestion? Huh? How'd they manage that?

There are so many great dogs of all working categories, ie PSD, SchH, etc, that there is ultimately no need to breed to unpapered dogs.

Lee, In all honesty I've never seen shelters offering free GSD's from genuine hard nosed dual purpose PSD lines.

But yes, I understand the financial side of it. You can't get as much money for one without papers but do AKC papers really make him more of a dog? Papers are just that, papers. Did you read the reason he has no papers?

If someone was going to lie about his lines they could just as easily lie about the litter's papers by saying another stud sired them.

But yes, I fully understand and appreciate the need for all kinds of papers and titles for SchH people... the more numbers and titles behind their name the prouder the owner is. I think it's more for the people than the dogs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But I am not interested in the SchH sport. My interest lays in PSD's and Protection Dogs. When my life depends on it, I'll put my unpapered Axel up against any "sport only" dog who may or may not risk his own life and bite if the criminal isn't wearing a sleeve.

And to the question about how much are papers needed for a stud? Well, you can't get any AKC titles without the papers, to start off with ( not that those are too important to a lot of people ).

However.....can a dog be OFA'd without papers? There is an identification clause in the OFA paper work that you fill out before you do the xrays.

And is your dog being shown in SchH or competing in some other dog sport that proves he's worthy of being bred?

No titles and no hip x-ray would equal backyard breeder in anybody's book.

And here's the forumula that all ethical breeders follow:

Backyard yard breeder + no hip x-rays + no titles on dogs = stud of *zero* value.

Sorry if that's harsh, but it's the truth.