I mean this dog really wont out.Imported Mal. and bites like a gator and hits like a ton of bricks.The dog will do a call off good but once he has the bite his eyes look like a great white and he aint letting go.It usually takes a good shock from the e-collar to get him off,but tonight the collar wasnt charged so we had to do it manually.There has got to be some better training than just the e-collar.We tried another helper flanking the dog but that wouldnt work finally we started slipping the sleeve and then sending him after the other helper.What would be the most effecient way to train this dog on the out?Lots of work is standard data but I want to feel confident in whatever method I sink my time into.

Have you tried waving a tug by him when you want the out? I am presently using this method to teach the out on my seven month old. No compulsion on the out......yet.

This dog wont even let go for another helper flanking him,unless you slip the sleeve first.He bites unbelieveable but wont let go.

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once he has the bite his eyes look like a great white and he aint letting go
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Great discription. IMO it is especially important to not continue with corrections especially corrections of force that are not being effective. This only seems to make the situation worse.

You may consider tying the dog out and using a prong collar attached to a long line. Give second party corrections from behind your helper or decoy. Make these corrections count. After the dog outs reward rather quickly with another bite. Do a few series of these and he'll quickly learn this association game. Stimulus - response - reward.

Another option would be to teach the dog that it is more fun to let go. It sounds like this is a very competitive dog that loves a good challenge.

The neither handler nor helper should do anything to stimulate the dog. Relaxed posture, no eye contact, no fight after the bite.

Boring, boring, boring. Standing sideways to the dog -catch swing and let the sleeve go. Round and round till he spits out the sleeve. Walk the dog away after he drops it. No stimulation.

Helper walks over to put sleeve on without making eye contact with dog. Another quick bite. Keep doing this until his drive goes down and you are pretty confident you can get him to out. Have the helper firm up without eye contact or fully squaring off with the dog.

If he outs the helper fights and gives the dog the competition he craves (a real good fight, eye contact, squaring up let the dog literally tare it from his arm and run off the field).

Boring, boring, boring no fight if he doesn't listen. Fight, fight, fight if he does.

Also obedience rewarded with a bite and slip may give him the idea that it is more fun to listen.

My only concern with the other method is that he my be a very hard-tough dog that will only take the correction as more of a fight/challenge and fight harder. Or that there will always be the struggle of you having to force him out.

Actually tonight we were using a prong on a long line and trying to correct him out then a recall with and send him back for the bite.He wouldnt out for the recall and another bite.The handler would have to return to the dog and string him up by the six foot lead and a choker till he let go.I didnt like this because of the potential neck damage with the choker.But the dog woulndt out.His bite is killer but he wont out.I think the answer lies somewhere in another bite.But the way he ignored the other helper flanking him makes me think about what other scenarios I need to come up with.I need to make the dog want to let go then comes the recall then another bite.I just am having trouble getting there.

Hey Eric, explain specifically what you mean with catch ,swing,round and round.Are you talking about carrying the sleeve round and round till he drops it on his own?I got the catch swing part.

Just a few thoughts! How strong is the bond to the handler. If it is strong and the helper is properly protected....have the handler move out of sight of his dog. This one takes patience and focus on the helpers part. Hopefully the dog will fell the need to check on the handler and release. Once the dog releases, the handler has to be really quick to be there to praise. Even provide an outlet like the tug. set up quick bite and repeat. I have seen it work and with a gsd that did the whites of the eyes thing!

Just from me to you for what it's worth.

When your dog will not out, have you ever stood in front of him and corrected him looking him in the face while he is still on the decoy guy? If he will not out then, sometimes you can take the leash and put it up under his back legs and begin to lift him up in the air while repeating the word out. If he outs then give him a reward by showing him love and that you are excited, then let the decoy guy give him some defense before he goes back to prey. Is this dog very protective of you? If so, then when he bites the sleeve, let the decoy guy grab you say out first then let the guy grab you. See will he go into defense then. If he releases and shows aggression because the decoy guy grabbed you, then reward him. I hope this is helpful to you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This is not my dog.I help with the sheriffs dept. this is a very tough dog no doubt.We did have the second helper attack the handler while the dog was on the bite with the first helper.Didnt work he wasnt letting go of his bite.He's like a snappin turtle ,he's not letting go till it thunders "or the e-collar" but I know if thought out we could get him off with out such a fight.I guess if we continued with the e-collar and long line we could get there but Id feel better if we also had another angle.