I will try to be brief but concise here.
I have an 8 month old GSD pup with plans for personal protection work. We have followed Ed's tapes, Bite Training Puppies, Building Drive, Focus, and Grip, and First Steps to Bite Training. I have a trainer which I have used on a previous dog, but am feeling a bit uncomfortable with his approach with this puppy.

Here is the most recent situation. We began using the trainer again about a month ago, previously for several months we used what we learned from Ed's tapes and my meager experience with my older PPD. Three training sessions were done on the fence with
me handling him and the trainer performing decoy work, IMO not doing anything to buidl confidence, but thats just MO.

During the third session he moved from the sleeve to the jacket of the full suit, bringing the jacket in over the dogs head first. This was his first introduction to the jacket. To the dogs credit he bit it, but I thought it pushed him into defense. Am I wrong here?? Please give me some opinions.

Fourth training session, the trainer says he wants to handle the dog and has the decoy advance in the full suit. I noticed the trainer pulled my dogs tail repeatedly throughout the exercise with the decoy.

Why would a trainer do this? Does this serve a valid purpose? I will tell you his reasoning if anyone is interested. But wanted some thoughts from you guys here on the board.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like you have a problem - any other trainers around there?

N. Lewis,

Any time you feel like you have a problem with a trainer, you probably do. The descriptions of training sessions you list are a little advanced for that age of puppy. If you feel like the dog is getting defensive with the work being done, it probably is. I would also be concerned about anybody grabbing the dogs tail as the handler (it is also a good way to get bit). In some cases I have seen it done with a dog to push them in to defense, when the dog turns it's back on the agitator. I am not really fond of this technique as it tends to make the dog sensitive about it's rear end. Again this would be used with older dogs.

It also sounds like the trainer is operating on a time table and pushing the dog to advance too fast. That would depend on the dog and the progress it is making. I wonder if the fee is based on a completion schedual? If so you are usually better off paying a little more and taking a longer time.

Mr. Lewis, I would take the advice I give to some of my "customers" on the side of the road......."its now time to be somewhere else, doing something else, with someone else". Ed and Richard are correct...if one is uncomfortable, right or wrong, with his or her training director / partner conflict is on the horizon. I would not tolerate for a moment, anyone pulling on my dogs tail at that or any other age. Archaic / inappropriate training practices like these are just the thing that gets folks like us (humane and educated) in the political arena with the antis.

I had a dog that was ruined by someone who did similar things to my dog at a young age due to my inexperience. In my humble opinion, I would turn and run like hell away from the guy.

Lose this guy!, and find a trainer who understands bringing a puppy along the right way...not the fastest way.

It is very difficult to find good training helpers...especially those who understand pups. You may have to drive 200mi. to find one, but do what you have to. You will not get a second chance, and poor training now may create a problem for life.

I am sure you can find some very good helpers in the Miami area.

This is not good training for a pup. I have seen handlers as Richard said pull the tail, to put the defense towards the decoy, and it can be an effective method, but not on a young dog or pup. This person does not sound like he knows what he is doing.

Our trainer used a similar method by "flanking" the dog to put him in defense drive. But he was the decoy, not the handler. And he would only do it once, twice at the most, before the dog gets the idea and it's no longer necessary. It's very risky, and no inexperienced person should ever try it, much less the handler. The handler is supposed to be praising the dog, not pissing him off! And pulling the tail? I think you're just asking for a bigger problem to happen on that one. I should also add that our trainer would not even work our dogs in protection until they were 18 months old.

Personally, I have a high defense drive
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> and a bit sharp as well, LOL
So I was concerned that I was "over-reacting"
to the situation. Richard put it well....
"Anytime you feel like you have a problem with a trainer, you probably do.."
I just thought I was being too defensive, so I feel validated <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> by everyone's comments.

We are going this weekend to check out the South Florida Schutzhund Club. I understand Phil Hoelcher is the president. Hopefully they are a friendly group, I'm a bit apprehensive about how we will be recieved, not having a Sch background. However we will do whatever it takes to have our dog properly evaluated and trained, humanely.

Nancy

Phil is a good trainer and a nice coach to have around. I am not sure how often he trains at the club though, but there are a few people there that are nice, and a few folks that are in a class of thier own. You will find that Phil likes a high prey drive dog for the sport with no real aggression for the man. He has done well in the sport and really is great at tracking. Phil also offers private coaching for a fee.
As far as tail pulling goes by the handler this is not the same as flanking the dog in order to get him to bite the man. It is risky and something that really there is a time for it, but it is not for everyone and every dog, and can be risky if you do not understand what is the theory behind it.