I would like to know what percentage of a litter from a good line of working dogs will make the cut as good Police Service Dogs? For Example: The Leerburg litter with B. Flinks dog Itor x Leerburg's Anna.

I know there's no way to tell what puppies will be good service dogs until they are older because good genes is no guarantee but how many actually will make the cut?

And who in the world takes all these puppies and works with them for 2 years and then culls them out? How can a Kennel afford to do that? I have four GSD's and only have time to work with the two best. I need to spend time on them twice a day on each puppy just working prey drive, let alone all the other training a service dog needs. I couldn't imagine trying to cull out a bunch of litters to find a few good service dogs. It wouldn't be worth the time and effort. Is most of this work done in Europe and then the dogs are imported over here at about two years of age for refined training?

Thanks,

Alan

Allan

Just my, two cents worth

The percentage I would think would depend, depends on who’s buying and who’s selling, if I am not selling my itor’s then you cant be buying now can you, and on the other hand if I am buying I will be influenced by what “I” THE person – personality perceive to be the best AND what I think “the department” wants, and it could very well not be Itor, some of us can for instance not afford a dog like that, don’t even know they exist, or prefer a different breed all together, there are to many variables, and it’s left open to interpretation, I think

We have a puppy prepping program here, and we spend one year to pre-repair our own dogs, with 4 trainers and you are right it takes, time, money, skill and experience – that honestly I do not think you will be able to calculate in terms of money

But yes dogs that only get raised in kennels, or/and prepped – are not all that good either- they to have some serious issues.

Well there you go the normal ratio would be zero to twenty %, some breeders claim 90% BTW, I think it’s a question of time spent selecting breeding partners, and then time spent taking them through their passes, just like you would advance a baby’s food from bottle to solids, some get it right all the time, some never.

I also feel it depends on what your standards are for a PSD. I heard one breeder say 95% of his pups will make it as a PSD. BS!!!

If you have low standards it's easy to say a dog is a PSD. I think you have to look at who is making the statements and what the standards of performance are.

I'm not a breeder but I would guess the % is pretty low. Looking at young dogs from real working kennels in Holland it's still difficult even to find quality "green" dogs. I would bet the % of US breeders that can make a claim above 20% would be far and few between.

It is noticable the number of breeders who advertise 100% working stock when they have puppies for sale,nobody can produce figures like this and I think Josh is probably over optimistic with 20%,that would be a very good breeder.
Paul

Talking with European breeders of working lines (with GSD), an honest number is about 1 out of 7, can make a Patrol Dog if raised the right way. Sometimes if you are lucky you can get 2, but it is debatable if the dog can make it. This is not to say more do not get sold as Police Prospects. Out of the rest you may have another 2 that can make high level sport, and great PP, and the rest turn out to be pets, or your general watch dog. I have not bred as much as alot of these people, but in raising pups, I notice these numbers to be somewhat accurate, if a breeder takes an honest look at what they produce and know what they are looking for. Sometimes you get a great litter, but this is not often. It can vary but not by much. Maybe Ed can give some numbers from his program, as he has bred over 250 litters I think. But the problem I think in the States is that that most Police Departments do not raise pups, but most buy from vendors that import.

The breeding program for Mal X's in North Rhine Westfalia Germany claim (as of 99) a 90% success rate with dogs they bred.
I think that there are really three questions here. First what percentage of a given litter have the genetics for police work, second, was the entire pedigree dedicated to producing police dogs, and what percentage are in the hands of skilled, experienced police dog rearers (I think that this is the "secret" that the dogs go to police officers looking for their next police dog.......provides serious motivation for keeping up on the proper rearing methods and goals).
To hand out a pecentage of dogs that will work from a given litter is hogwash. To take a population and determine the best way to breed and rear them for the work and then claculate a successful percentage is a big task. One a individual breeder cannot do.

Originally posted by Alan Bliven:

And who in the world takes all these puppies and works with them for 2 years and then culls them out? How can a Kennel afford to do that? I have four GSD's and only have time to work with the two best. I need to spend time on them twice a day on each puppy just working prey drive, let alone all the other training a service dog needs. I couldn't imagine trying to cull out a bunch of litters to find a few good service dogs. It wouldn't be worth the time and effort. Is most of this work done in Europe and then the dogs are imported over here at about two years of age for refined training?

Thanks,

Alan ALot of these dogs that are imported and then sold to Police Departments are sold in Germany by dog brokers. These people look around Europe at Schutzhund clubs, problem dogs for the average owner etc. and buy them. They then market them to overseas buyers. Alot of the dogs that get imported are from sport clubs. Sometimes these people loose intrest in the sport, or the dog does not work out for whatever reason. Then the broker comes along and purchases the dog. Sometimes you will get a titled dog that did not score high, or has a problem in the sport so the owner does not want him anymore, so he sells the dog. I am not aware of many kennels in Europe that raise pups for service work, with the intention of selling them to overseas buyers.

Kevin, would the % you gave for the German Police School, does that include just patrol dogs or in that number would detector dogs also be included?

Kevin and others, I asked a NRW police K9 rearer/handler what he estimated was the % of service dogs in the better GSD litters. This is what he said his ESTIMATION would be.

Of the pups that are selection tested and then placed with rearers *, well over %50 of each litter is placed. Then he said that about 50% of those make it to actual service on the street and keep working. (so that includes health reasons for adult and nearly adult drop outs)

He also said that it always seems the best handlers happen to end up with the best candidates at cert time.

That says to me that the environment is maybe the biggest factor, as long as the genetics are there.


When I asked the same question about Malinois and crosses he said that the inicial % are usually higher, but it seemed to him that a good number of them drop out within the first year of service because of some training issue or other. He said, "Maybe its our breeding, maybe its the breed has more crazy sh!t in him."


*I'm not so clear what that means. I think it really means the handler, his family, and the sport clubs that his family usually trains with.

>>>>>>>>>>Kevin, would the % you gave for the German Police School, does that include just patrol dogs or in that number would detector dogs also be included? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I'm not sure. I got the number from the director of the school. I have also heard this number inflated to CYA due to the expense of having such a program. That after a year or so on the street the numbers drop considerably. I believe that the dogs first must be patrol dogs then accepted into detector roles in the school except for a few specialty dogs. It would be interesting to know for sure.

Additionally, the NRW program dropped its GSD breeding program (although they are doing some X-breeding to their remaining GSD brood bitches) due to its low percentage of success. reported to me a few years back by the director as 60%. This was an economic decision.