I spoke to my trainer last night about doing some bite work with my 12 month old GSD. I am training my dog for SAR, but I thought doing some protection work would be fun and help build drive and confidence in my dog, not that he's not pretty high drive now. I also think it will help with his bark alert. My trainer refered me to the head trainer to set up an evaluation because he teaches the advanced obedience and obsticle classes and didn't want to effect his ability to work with my dog in his classes. He also cautioned me that my dog may be civil, that he may be more inclined to take things seriously and personally with the helper. I understand that civil training is working without visable protection. But I need a better understanding of what it means to have and train a civil dog.

Here's my opinion on your current situation:

You are considering doing some bite work on a SAR dog that's 12 months old. If the dog is new to bite work, and he's only a year old, he should just be worked in prey drive for the foreseeable future. Training a young dog is defense is usually not a good idea, and training a dog in defense before it's got a strong base in prey is just a crappy idea, period.

Civil work is defensive in nature ( and yes, it's done without visible protective gear on the helper ). Since your dog may never even see defensive work, I wouldn't worry about him developing a civil attitude.
If he actually showed an ability to go civil at that age with no training, sell him as a police candidate and start over, you have the wrong dog for SAR. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

A dog that will actually go "civil" is a lot more rare then people think. I've seen many SchH handlers brag about their dog being civil when the dog would barely engage a sleeve, much less a threatening handler with no gear on to clue the dog that it was time to fight. It's a popular misconception that people fool themselves about.
I'd also worry about a trainer that would feed you that level of misinformation, they don't know what they're talking about, and that's not a good sign.

Hi Jason, In my opinion SAR dog and civil bite work is just not a good combination. You may ask for trouble. These are two different ball games and I don't know if a dog can be reliable in both fields. I would be worried about some confusion by the dog how he suppose to react to certain behavior of the person he should rescue. He might start to hold and bark or something like that or worse. Maybe somebody has some experience with it and can share it. I'm curious.

Thanks for the info. I was kind of surprised when my trainer made mention of it, our SAR unit leader was also baffled. I'm not sure what my trainer has seen in my dog because I have not done any bite work with them yet. I have been working obedience and their obstacle course. I took him up to the local Schutzhund club and did a tease with the pillow and bite builder and he did well, definitely in prey mode the whole time. As far as my trainer feeding misinformation, I don't think that was his intention. He told me to set up an evaluation and to be careful because Alex may have civil tendencies. I just want to know as much as possible so that I can identify any problems. I don't want him to take down some poor lost Alzheimer’s patient because I made a mistake or failed to identify something in his training.

Jason, I train in both SAR and Schutzhund with my dog. Under NO circumstances would I ever train him for civil, or true protection work. His Schutzhund is nothing more than a game to get the sleeve. Even though he's strictly doing prey work, I don't know what he'll bring to the table with maturity, but I constantly proof to keep him clear headed about biting. I totally agree with Will. If your dog is truely a civil dog (rarely) he has no business in SAR to begin with.

David,
I'm not planning on doing any civil training with him. You are right that would be a dangerous combination. My trainer cautioned me that he may have civil tendancies. I am trying to decide if I should do schutzhund style protection work with him.

You're doing the right thing. I think regular SchH training based on prey drive would not hurt the SAR training.If your dog shows 'civil' behavior I would really think about if he the right one for SAR. I agree with Will. Better to look another job for him to do. The police would be happy to get him.

You guys are right if he is truly civil I would not use him for SAR. Of course he's a long hair and fixed so I don't think a PD would want him.

Even without being civil, I would be sure he's a very clear headed dog to do both. A dog with strong defence doesn't have to be civil to make a bad bite. For that matter, ANY dog can make a bad bite with the wrong trainers/helpers, etc.

That is exactly my concern, I want to make sure there is a clear cut difference between bite-work games and real life. The bite work would be fun and I really think Alex would enjoy it but I don't want it to foul my ultimate goal in his training.