I have looked at a few breeder sites, and there are a couple of dogs that I like. There are two particular dogs on the Kraftwerk site that I like - Iras von Haus Katernburg and Elvis von der Maineiche, though he's young. Iras was my first pick just from looking through the pictures of the dogs on the site, but upon comparing the videos, he also seems to be the better of all of the dogs as far as obeying the handler's commands. I wonder why Elvis is priced lower than the rest?

On the CPI site, there are only two Level II dogs (which is what my husband says he wants, after looking at the sites yesterday), one of which is a Malinois, which I don't want. The other looks to be a long-haired or plush-coated shepherd, also something I don't want. I had originally thought a Level I dog would be fine, but he pointed out the bit about protection from a violent attacker, and the price really isn't that much more expensive for the Level II dogs. So a Level II is probably what we'll end up getting, but we need to get the 2nd mortgage loan paid down first because we'll have to take out a loan to get a dog. lol

The only thing I'm unsure about, regarding the Kraftwerk dogs is whether these dogs are actually being trained for PP or the protection phase of Schutzhund? For PP don't you use a hidden sleeve? I worry about whether these dogs would actually work for PP because they may not bite someone if that person isn't wearing a sleeve. Ideas?

CPI site?
Link?

Will.

CPI

Be careful when looking for a "protection dog" over the internet. Most of these dogs are equipment oriented only. But in this business, as in any other, the best customers are those who know nothing about what they're buying. It's just like a good car salesman selling you a car because it was you're favorite color, when you haven't even looked under the hood. It's easy money for the seller.

Go look at dogs and test them out. And when it comes to protection dogs, everybody seems to think they need a man-eater. So get ahold of your ego and be realistic with your own needs. 99.9% of the time, all you'll need is a dog that stands his ground.

Why don't you want a Mal??

Kristen, you may want to do a search here on the forums and see our previous comments on CPI.
You can get a better dog at half the price elsewhere, but it's your money.....
I wouldn't send a friend to them, put it that way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

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I wouldn't send a friend to them, put it that way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hell Will, I wouldn't even send an enemy to them! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I thought CPI was a little pricey as well, but I liked the tables that showed what their dogs were supposed to be trained in. I may just print those out and keep them on hand so I can tell whoever I get a dog from exactly what I want. I will go back and read what has been said about CPI previously.

I'm not looking for a man-eater, as I said in my other post re: what lines for my situation. I don't want a Mal because they are too high strung (that's what owners have told me anyway).


What about the hidden sleeve vs. visible sleeve thing, though? Do you start out with a visible sleeve and transition to the hidden sleeve when training a pp dog, or how does that work? That was my main issue with those sites - they all seem to show the dog being worked on a visible sleeve, but the dogs are supposedly protection trained. ?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Just because a dog has or hasn't been trained on a hidden sleeve is not an indication that he'll do PP work, e.g. bite a human being for real. I'm not a big fan of them because they have to be "presented" by the decoy to the dog so he doesn't get bitten somewhere that isn't protected. That "presentation" is just as much of a cue to the dog as is the presence of a sleeve. I think a far better tool for making the transition from the visible sleeve or suit is the muzzle. But the dog first has to be desensitized to it so that he doesn't make an association between it and bitework.

Well, you could always ask for a demonstration of a potential dog's civil behavior.

Bring a decoy/ friend along and have the dog in question held on a strong leash by the handler ( ask him to just post and not give the dog *any* commands ). You and your decoy/ friend could visually inspect the dog from a safe distance of say 10 feet away. Then you and your decoy/ friend separate to where you're both maintaining a 10 foot distance from the dog ( you're trying to have your decoy/ friend in the dog's visual range but you're far off to the side ). Have your decoy/ friend become threatening with a raised voice and menacing behavior but maintaining the safe 10 foot range. The handler is not allowed to give a command to the dog, the whole point of this is to see what the dog will do on his own. Now, the friend/decoy has no equipment...and you'd be shocked how many "highly trained" dogs will do nothing here, as they don't have the cue of seeing equipment.
( having said all this, this test is *VERY* dangerous to do. If the handler drops the line by accident and the dog really will engage, your friend is gonna pay for it )

I'd immediately scrap a dog that wouldn't react in a confident display of aggression towards a threatening decoy without any equipment on. Unless of course the bad guys on your block all wear bite sleeves...

This is a test in ASR for the Entry level - if a dog won't go civil on a decoy just wearing civilian clothes with no equipment, the trial's over for them.

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Just because a dog has or hasn't been trained on a hidden sleeve is not an indication that he'll do PP work, e.g. bite a human being for real. I'm not a big fan of them because they have to be "presented" by the decoy to the dog ...

That's something else that I've noticed. Exactly how are PPDs trained so that they will not hesitate to react to someone not wearing a sleeve or presenting their arm or whatever? I told you I had no idea about all of this - that's why I'm starting now.