Eddy Wong wrote 10/30/2002 09:51 AM pseudo drugs #8142 - 10/30/2002 09:51 AM
Eddy Wong Webboard User Reg: 07-23-2002 Posts: 89 Loc: Offline	I would like to purchase pseudo drugs for dog training and would like to know places where I can purchase some. I know http://www.sigma.com manufactures pseudo drugs but I am not sure what to search for on their website (product name or item number). Thanks in advance!
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SabreK9 wrote 10/30/2002 01:12 PM Re: pseudo drugs [Re: Eddy Wong ] #8143 - 10/30/2002 01:12 PM
SabreK9 Webboard User Reg: 08-26-2002 Posts: 16 Loc: Offline	Click on search, then type in Narcotic Scent. Your search for Product Name: NARCOTIC SCENT Was found in 6 documents. P2423 Sigma Pseudoä Narcotic Scent Cocaine formulation Powder P7681 Sigma Pseudoä Narcotic Scent Cocaine formulation solution Solution P2548 Sigma Pseudoä Narcotic Scent Heroin formulation Powder P7806 Sigma Pseudoä Narcotic Scent Heroin formulation solution P1334 Sigma Pseudoä Narcotic Scent LSD formulation Powder P7309 Sigma Pseudoä Narcotic Scent Marihuana formulation If your new to narcotic detection work, you may want to invest a little money in some training material, including video's and books, just a little advice. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> http://www.sabredetection.com
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Eddy Wong wrote 10/30/2002 02:41 PM Re: pseudo drugs [Re: Eddy Wong ] #8144 - 10/30/2002 02:41 PM
Eddy Wong Webboard User Reg: 07-23-2002 Posts: 89 Loc: Offline	Thanks for the reply. I purchased several books and video on Narcotic detection (one of the video is Ed's video on training narcotic detection dog). If anyone has any tips/suggestion, feel free to post them here.
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David C.Frost wrote 10/31/2002 07:01 AM Re: pseudo drugs [Re: Eddy Wong ] #8145 - 10/31/2002 07:01 AM
David C.Frost Webboard User Reg: 01-23-2002 Posts: 1204 Loc: Nashville, TN Offline	I don't believe in taking blanks to the firing range for qualification, I wouldn't release a dog in a real life situation with a muzzle on,and I don't use fake drugs to train a drug dog. I know this question pops up on occasion. Psuedo drugs are just that. NOT REAL. You don't have to have a license to possess them, they are legal to transport, in fact there is no law saying you can't snort them if you want. I've heard all the arguments. I've yet hear one that will convince me that there is a good reason for it. Yes, I've done the tests, Dogs we've trained on actual drugs, will not stimulus generalize on psuedo. I see no benefit at all. DFrost Any behavior that is reinforced is more likely to occur again.
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Mike Taylor wrote 10/31/2002 07:20 AM Re: pseudo drugs [Re: Eddy Wong ] #8146 - 10/31/2002 07:20 AM
Mike Taylor Webboard User Reg: 07-25-2001 Posts: 142 Loc: Offline	I suppose there might be some circumstances that could conspire to prevent you from using the real thing to train with...it IS a PITA to deal with real narcotics, keep records, rush back to the training site at 6:00AM instead of going home because you forgot about a "hide", etc. But the first time a really slick lawyer busts your chops in court about your training on pseudo drugs, and trust me on this, one will sooner or later, you will realize why this is not a good idea. There are several creative ways to work around this issue if you are an LEO who is having problems with the brass. If you are a civilian, there is little alternative but to get a DEA license.
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Michael Taylor Rivers wrote 10/31/2002 01:31 PM Re: pseudo drugs [Re: Eddy Wong ] #8147 - 10/31/2002 01:31 PM
Michael Taylor Rivers Webboard User Reg: 07-16-2001 Posts: 908 Loc: Florida Offline	This issue of pseudo has been bounced around for..... I do not know how long. While the argument can be made for the reason's on why to use real narcotices, I can tell you with confidence that there are a number of Police Departments that do use this product for training, and have never ran into any problems. I would like to know if anyone knows a case where the fact that the dog was trained on pseudo was a loosing factor for the team's credibilty. The argument that "I look for real drugs so I use real drugs" does not hold water with a lot of trainers. This is something that I have had disscusions with many Police Dog trainers about, and both stand-points have crediable views. I am just looking ot see if there has been a case on point either way.
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Brandon Chow wrote 10/31/2002 03:09 PM Re: pseudo drugs [Re: Eddy Wong ] #8148 - 10/31/2002 03:09 PM
Brandon Chow Webboard User Reg: 04-09-2002 Posts: 164 Loc: Southern California Offline	Hello All: I don't have the case law information, but I do know of a case that happened in California - I can't remember if it was in LA or Orange County about 4-5 years ago. The genesis of the case is that if your dog was trained on pseudo and then transferred to actual narcotics there is a built in conflict. If the dog hits on residue 1:1000% or basically anything that can be seen but it isn't enough to perform a presumptive test, or there is something questionable about the chain of custody, you're going to loose your case. Generally speaking, most LE's at least in my area do not use pseudo. If you are a civillian - then you will need to apply for a DEA license, but unless you're a professional trainer, etc - why would a civillian even want or need to train their dog for narcotic detection? Hope this helps, Brandon
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Eddy Wong wrote 10/31/2002 03:56 PM Re: pseudo drugs [Re: Eddy Wong ] #8149 - 10/31/2002 03:56 PM
Eddy Wong Webboard User Reg: 07-23-2002 Posts: 89 Loc: Offline	If a law enforcement officer (one that want to try training his personal dog for drug detection) applied for a DEA license to use real drugs for dog training, what are the chances of approval?
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corgipower - Elizabeth Shulman wrote 10/31/2002 06:25 PM Re: pseudo drugs [Re: Eddy Wong ] #8150 - 10/31/2002 06:25 PM
corgipower - Elizabeth Shulman Webboard User Reg: 09-13-2002 Posts: 99 Loc: Offline	there is a market for private industry narcotics searches using drug dogs. so there are non LE people with a need for narcotics trained dogs. not everyone is in a position to get a DEA license, and in that case they have to use pseudo. for police, i do think it is preferable to train on real drugs, but i know several k9 officers that train on pseudo. the argument i was told they give in court is that the dog indicates on narcotics and on narcotic odors. don't know how well that holds up. for the private industry, the laws are probably different. A dog teaches a boy fidelity, perseverance, and to turn around three times before lying down. --Roger Caras
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David C.Frost wrote 11/01/2002 07:34 AM Re: pseudo drugs [Re: Eddy Wong ] #8151 - 11/01/2002 07:34 AM
David C.Frost Webboard User Reg: 01-23-2002 Posts: 1204 Loc: Nashville, TN Offline	Corgi, You are correct that the law is different for private contract type work, as opposed to an entity of the government, ie. Law Enforcement. A different set of rules exist relative to search and seizure. In all honesty, I'm not aware of any case law either, that makes training with psuedo a disadvantage. I've certainly been asked in court, during suppression hearing, if psuedo was used in the training process, and I always answer in the negative. So I don't know first-hand where that questioning would lead. My only argument is, it is different that real drugs and I see no need training with substances that I"m not looking for. Fortunately, drugs are not in short supply for training purposes. By the way, I have trained 2 Corgis, as working dogs. Awesome critters, I wish I could justify the use of some for our current program. I've got a couple of ideas I would truly love to try using the corgi for, I think they would be ideally suited. DFrost Any behavior that is reinforced is more likely to occur again.
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