I've been training active alert alert dogs for quite a few years but I'm really in my opinion a novice at passive alert. I've always understood the importance of primary rewards in detection training. I also understand the importance of the handler not cueing the dog. I'm needing help in developing the strong passive alert with a intense stare at the source. We are currently training using the box method and the reward is coming from the source. The dog alerts and a helper reaches into a side hole and at the correct time pops the reward through the top hole into the air. This has worked pretty well with the obvious problem of the dog looking for someone to approach the box(source) and reach in to supply the reward. When is the best time to make the transition away from the boxes? What are some creative ways to build the strong alert with and without the boxes? How best to mantain the alert once past box searches? I'm trying to avoid the potential problem of having passive dogs that don't alert close enough to source or look to the handler for the reward. I've asked alot of questions here hope some of you with more passive alert experience can offer some advice.
Thanks,
Mark Connolly

Mark maybe this will help! We use a tug reward that is given by a helper similar to your way. the difference is the tug is thrown in from the side to the source. we will change it up having several helpers around the box line so the dog does not know where the reward it to come from. No one has to approach the dog and subsequently remove his focus.

When doing actual hides, the tug is given by the handler and put quick to the source. The tug has to be readily available as to avoid the looking to the handler problem.

Do you use a "show me" command after the indication?

I like your idea of having several helpers around all sides of the box so the dog has no idea where the reward is coming from. This still will not however improve the staring at the source that I'm after. No matter how quick or well timed your reward is tossed the dog will always figure it out eventually. I'm not a fan of the "show me" command. I feel that that is exactly what I asked the dog at the beginning of the search. I know many trainers like adding the "show me" to the end of the passive sit. My feeling is that the dog should be trained to show me without a second command, and that of course is the problem at hand.

gotcha! I guess the only other thing that I could think of would be speed of the search. The box search, moving quick, indication , reward bam. move quick pace! I have only experienced this one way and the focus was enduring that the dog knew the reward came from the source, and it came quick. timing is crucial.

that's it.........

Mark,
I think you should do a “shell game” on a pegboard. This is a primary reward drill that will build the stare. The handler hides the scented gift in a bog that is connected at the top to the pegboard. When the dog “hits” correct you can tilt the box up and out comes gifty.

Since pegboard is cheep you can get several and have clean search areas while you teach this. I am a strong believer of primary rewards. This will help. If active but non-aggressive indication is what you are after then this primary search technique will sharpen his and your detailing skills as well.

You can change the level of the find and line-up pegboards with boxes to help your sweep techniques in detailing. I also use it to proof the dog.

Can you describe a little more how you set up this peg board and box scenario?

The pegboards are vertical against the wall. I make 2 kinds of boxes with both are 1ft. x 1ft. and about and 4 inches deep. (Use sectioned 2x4s)

I then screw a cover on one side of the box with either Plexiglas (make it the strong kind) or ¼ inch Masonite.

Now that you have an 1x1x4 box I put a 1 3/4 inch Galvanized Barbed Staple (http://doityourself.com/store/galvanizedbarbedstaples.htm) at the top of the box leaving about ½ exposed forming a place where a pegboard hook would fit.

I use pegboard hooks (http://www.foxbarn.co.uk/product_category/pegboard_hooks/) bent up to thread the box eyehole. You can then move the location and height of the find on each board by this method.

Now here is one important thing I did not mention. I have special scented boxes (one for each narcotic) and on the inside of the box I have Velcro and my narcotics-bag is in a Velcro bag also. That way I can determine thee the amount of scent from large to trace amounts I need to train with. I do not cross contaminate my boxes and keep my clean boxes clean…I also color mark them with wax crayon

Green: clean
Red: Narcotics find
Black: Proofing scent

When the boxes are hanging on the pegboard wall, their underside in not fastened to it. You can plant the gifty in the scented box and when the dog shows correct eye focus lift up the bottom an pops out the reward.

I during my training I place my hand on every box when I am asking the dog to detail it. That way he doesn’t “key” off of my body language nor do I “accidentally” give away the find. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wouldn't spend to much time with rewarding from the box for the reasons you stated. We set up 4 boxes 1 with the hides (meth, crack/cocaine, herion, marijuama) and the other 3 clean. set the hide box in a differnet place each time. When the dog finds the hide keep moving and work your way to the rear of the dog being sure to stay out of its perifial vision then deliver the reward. Reward quickly then extend the time, but be sure not to let the dog get frustrated waiting for the reward, but once the dog has caught you delivering the reward a couple of times there isn't much of a chance of getting the stare back. Because we all know that dogs are cheaters by nature and if they know the reward comes from daddy then why look at the box/hide for the reward. Good luck hope this helps.

I believe you are correct that we have spent to much time rewarding from the box and we also have been making the dog wait to long. We have created our own problems. Jon, I believe you use a simliar style of training passive that I'm trying to achieve. Thanks for your advice.
Mark

Mark, it sounds like you're getting answers to your questions. Jon seems to be using the same Licklider syle of training. I think he's right you may be spending too much time in the imprinting phase.

As it relates to getting caught remember that the only thing that remains constant is the odor. The handler should not position himself to reward. Keep him moving. He needs to know how to deliver the reward but it may be good to have a second party deliver part of the time. Look for little things like does the dog hear the ball come out of his pocket? If so have him pull the ball out and delay the delivery. Stagger the amount of time between deliveries. Eventually you want to get away from the one to one ratio.

Are you having any problems with the dogs not finishing? Are they locking up? If the dog knows his task it really doesn't matter if the handler gets caught. However, it does make life easier if he doesn't get caught.

I'll look over my notes to see it there is anything that I can add. We certailnly have some quicks of our own to work out.