Will, are you just concerned with bona fide handler defense incidents? Home, perimeter, territory does not count? Why? It would seem that such scenarios would be somewhat pack driven (??)

Do you see a limit on an untrained dog's reaction to agression upon it's owner, if the dog percieves himself very subordinate?

Also, your approach and answers re your data (in the other post) express your underlying honesty. It's a good day when someone shares a dose of reality that may help someone else.

I agree that people place excessive trust in dogs...and in GUNS. I saw somewhere that you attended Thunder Ranch (and the "other" place <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />...there I'm sure you were exposed to the knife against gun scenario (or worse, a machete <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ...and from your experience, you know about hand gun INEFFICACY.

Each aspect of protection has its place...and think it's a clear sign of maturity to be aware of that.

Thanks for sharing. PS: Count me in for a few copies.

I'm also interested in Will's book but I'm a little bit confused and I don't understand really what you're talking about here. I hope Will's book is easier to read.

Well, I carry a Gunsite Folding knife full time ( http://www.coldsteel.com/folding-knives-gunsite-series.html ) but I rely on my Glock 30 for a serious encounter. I've never fought anyone with a knife, but I did do Emergency medicine for a few years as a PA and it seemed like the winner of a knife fight often wasn't in much better condition than the loser.

And I came up with so many perimeter defense stories that I'm not even mentioning them in the book - a dog can have crappy nerves but still put up an awesome display *behind* a fence and prevent a break-in, but that's just common sense and doesn't need to be explained in depth. And if the perp decides to test that dog with the bad nerves, well, hope you have another layer of protection in place.....
The real point of my book is to show people how rare a true dog protection event is, and how to pick and train a dog of the correct temperament for the work.

When we talk about temperament and select the right dog how is it different from the puppy selection for a service dog by Berhard Flink? I remember reading in an article about breeding that Ed also looks for temperament and not necessarily for the titles what I strongly believe. He also talks about experience you need to have to see and read the temperament of a dog. How can an less experienced handler make a good choice? How do you describe temperament?

The selection testing is different for an adult, because a mature dog can show you what you're looking for, if you know how to bring it out in the dog. A puppy really can't be tested for defense due to it's immaturity, and you certainly can't test a puppy for a civil response.

And how can a less experienced handler make a good choice? I've said this many times in past posts - take along an experienced trainer/ decoy who you trust to help you make the selection.
It's the best way.

Will, I have a closet full of guns that I can't see the front post on anymore. That and I have three small kids. so the guns are secured. I think my two and a half dogs ought to keep any disagreeable people out. Plus the neighborhood is watchful. We always wave hi to any car we don't recognize <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> common sense and prudence should keep most ppl safe. You made a comment about El Salvador's crime rate. I'm going to look that up and compare that to one of our states or cities

Am I on the right track when I believe that a 99 point SchH3 routine or the title "Bundessieger" doesn't mean that you've got a good protection dog. Further tests should prove the temperament and the real thing. Sport and reality are different ball games.

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Am I on the right track when I believe that a 99 point SchH3 routine or the title "Bundessieger" doesn't mean that you've got a good protection dog.

With some of the schutzhund 3 dogs I'v seen, I'd say your on the right track <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I definatly don't mean to make this a sport on sport discussion, I am not purposely going there, but as sports go I would bet alot on an ASR 3 dog protecting you in real life. It depends on what that sport requires of the dog and the type of training it takes to get the dog there that must be looked at, but then again in the ASR world 'sport' is used very loosely and damn near taboo, we prefer "program" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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And I came up with so many perimeter defense stories that I'm not even mentioning them in the book - a dog can have crappy nerves but still put up an awesome display *behind* a fence and prevent a break-in, but that's just common sense and doesn't need to be explained in depth. And if the perp decides to test that dog with the bad nerves, well, hope you have another layer of protection in place.....

What about dogs that actually bit a criminal or intruder, but were not with their owner?

Do you think dogs that are subordinate are less likely to defend their owner?

The point of your book is very solid, as far as dogs actually biting someone...

I had many, many instances where I tried to get close to a place, at night, trying to keep surprise on my side, and was foiled...detected by a bunch of very sensitive small dogs...from more than 100 mts away.

The dog, as an alarm, is simply INVALUABLE.

As a Postal worker I feel somewhat qualified to comment on biteing dogs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I've talk to quite a number of letter carriers and most of thier bites are back of the leg bites. Carriers usually have pepper spray and are instructed to feed the dog the mail pouch. Many of the bites acured with multiple dogs. Basicaly two in front yappin one gets your back side.