Last night at dinner my wife and I had a talk about dogs and this came up. Now this question might be a duh for most of you, but I really want to get pro opinions on this. Im hoping Will and maybe even ED will chime in on this.
Every and all opinions are welcome, as I would like to hear them all.

*Question one*
When a breeder says, I breed for temperment and the betterment of the breed. But, also says he/she breeds to make money. Can these two comments co-interact with each other, or does one conflict with the other? Can you breed to make money and still breed to better the breed?

*Question two*
Breeders that breed for(lack of a better word)odd ball sizes and colors, can they still breed for the betterment of the breed and temperment? Example, breeders that breed for all blue, or blue brindle APBTs, or all white, or black GSDs, or all black Mals, people that breed for all 115 pound APBTs, hints the word "all".

It just seems like every breeder I talk to says, "I breed for temperment and to better the breed". But in the same convo says, "I breed for size and color" Now, I am not in the market for a dog, but I like to see what breeders are producing, just incase, I like to know whats out there.

Sorry if this post is just stupid, it is just frustrating to me and Im not sure what to think.

Thanks for any and all imput.
David.

I'm no pro, but I do know that when you have people breeding for large size outside of the breed standard (like 100 lb GSDs) or "rare colors" (like white shepherds which are specifically disqualifications in the standard), are definitely NOT in it for betterment of the breed. One can definitely breed for color if it's accepted in the standard, it's even better if they breed for color tertiary to temperament and physical soundness, such as a kennel focusing on producing black GSDs with strong drives and excellent structure. I do think that if a kennel focuses on color, even counting on temperament and soundness, the kennel won't be too successful.

As far as huge GSDs, they have Shilohs and King Shepherds, and it should be left to that. GSDs were not made to be ginormous. Same goes with white GSDs and the newish White Shepherd breed.

I am in no way a professional but I love a disscussion especially this area.

Question 1 answer: If you are truly breeding to better the breed you better be competing in some sort of area. As well as pen hip and temperament test tatoo, there is alot that goes back into the dogs. I for example to many pit bull breeder breeding Ch bloodlines or they say they breed for such and such but not even compete in those said events. So I say to do it right you should be putting money back into your dogs and any extra save for emergency dog problems.

qhestion 2 answer: As long as it is withing the standard I see no problem with focusing on your personal taste. a 115 pound pit bull is not a true pit bull if you want a mastif go buy a mastif. The merle color is a fault in pit same as the white in gsd therfore I believe people who advertise rare merle color are just a puppy mill. Even if they advertise in dog fancy. There just a big puppy mill.

If you breed for temperament you need to prove it or anything for that matter. The ukc allows blue and therefore I am ok with that.

Again I am in no way a expert but just some of my thoughts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks guys for your input. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Daniel, nice 70s pound male, very pretty dog. Your female at 50s pound is very sharp looking also. You have some great looking dogs on your page. In member bio and pics, I have a pic of my newest boy. I will get you a link and repost.

Thanks guys.
David.

As of now, Im the last one on the page.

http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/showf...=0&fpart=12

David.

sounds good thanks for the compliments

I don't breed for color or size. I breed to the standard. Yes some have come out oversized, but that will sometimes happen just like in showlines that have longcoats, etc. I do work my dogs in schutzhund. I did Hardy's Sch2 and Sch3 in Feb/April after starting to work him in January. I really don't believe you can know what the dog is all about unless you work them, stress them, etc.

I'm not a breeder but IMO:

1. If a breeder is doing this full time, as most serious breeders are - then making money is part of the business - if they are not making money and they are devoting all their time to it, then they can't pay their mortgage, or dog food, or people food etc etc - making money off breeding, to me, doesn't say that the dogs are of any less or more quality. That's why good dogs are expensive and backyard bred dogs are cheap.

2. The definition of "bettering the breed" is a big blur - it depends on who you ask. Some people think GSD's should be bred to the breed standard, some people think they should be bigger, smaller, longer, taller, faster, have straight backs, roached backs, black faces with pink dots on their back.... I think if a breeder is able to take temprement, breed standard, and physical attributes (attributes that are still within the standard and not considered flaws) all into account and create dogs that meet all the requirements, they have done a very good job. From what I am hearing - working dog breeders don't focus much on appearance, they focus on structure and temprement/working ability - whereas the Show breeders don't care so much about drive and working ability as they do a pretty dog with a friendly temprement. I am sure there are breeders who have achieved a very pretty dog with great structure and awesome temprement and are consistently producing such dogs - but whats to say their idea of pretty is the same as everyone elses?

This is just my opinion from what I've heard from breeders and picked up from various sources. I don't think breeding from breed flaws is "bettering" the breed though. White GSD's are very pretty dogs - but there's alot of health problems that I've read about in these dogs, and I have no idea what the temprements are like - so for example, seeing how difficult it is already to find a good working dog in the normal bloodlines - breeding this working ethic into a minority such as the white GSD becomes even more rare - so what are the breeders of white GSD's aiming for? Black is a color that seems to be very common in working lines (maybe not all-black but the darker colors seem to be the tell-tale sign of a working line from all the working dogs I've seen around) - so breeding for all-black GSD's with good drive and working ability as well as physical structure would seem more likely.

I agree with everything you say. Though I have seen expencive backyard bred dogs. Who really take advantage of people who don't know better. I mainly speak of apbt realm. rare blue 5000 there are no titles any where in pedigree picture of dog o chain. I have a blue and didn't even spend half that. though I do agree on average a local newspaper bred do couple hundred a performance bred dog IE leerburg 1800.

I like to stay away from breeders that say they breed to better the breed. I don't breed anymore, but just to get 50+ percentage-wise that did the work well everytime you breed would be a decent goal. Bettering is where we went wrong in the first place. Plus IMHO I think it's a really amatuer statement.

Oddball sizes is another amatuer thing. "I have crap and like to have puppies" Thats what they're adds ought to say.

I think that too many people go for color first. There are a lot of people that really like wierd stuff so they can stick out and be noticed. It sells.