I just recieved the Dogtra 1200ncp last week and was using it this evening after a weeks worth of research of proper use. I started with some simple obedience work after finding my dogs' working level (18). Things were going great until the dog decided to run for the car when he thought we were done. I had not yet released him from the training situation yet so I called him back and gave him a nick as he ran to the car. You would have thought the thing was turned all the way up by the way he yelped. It surprised the heck out of me as he was not reacting that way during the whole training session.
A similar thing happened with another one of our dogs in a similiar training situation. All was good, then he yelled out when stimmed. This after I reduced the level by about 4 degrees during the training. Is this common? I hope our unit is not defective. The batteries were fully charged and the collar was fit correctly. Any suggestions.

Howard

THe effectivenes of an e-collar depends on a number off points:
Level of stimulation
Humidity
Surprise factor
Dog in drive yes or no
etc

If one of these points change you might you're dog might react different and this in the 2 sences; ignoring or over reacting.

Greetings


Johan

Johan, Thanks. I made sure that the dogs were not put into drive during the training as I wanted to get some collar time before doing so. It may have been that the collar was set a little too high to begin with and should have been a little lower. I imagine that the surprise factor was the culprit here. Both dogs are handler sensitive and very easy to work.

Howard

I've never heard of humidity affecting the stimulation of an Ecollar. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, just that I've never heard of it or seen it.

Howard, I'd suggest not giving the dog the opportunity to "run for the car." When you hit the button, and the dog jumped, your training went south. You caused confusion, to some degree, and set your training back. Your dog learned that he can shut off the stim by jumping and yelling, rather than what you wanted him to do, return to you. Look at my website and read the article on how to teach the recall. I wouldn't let the dog off the leash until I had proofed the recall with the "hierarchy of toys."

The essence of Ecollar training is very simple. 1. Make the dog uncomfortable. 2. Guide the dog using your hands, the leash, treats or anything else appropriate, into the desired behavior. 3. Make the dog comfortable. Usually there is only a few seconds between steps 1 and 3.

Step 1 is accomplished by pressing the button. Step 3 is accomplished by releasing the button (used on continuous mode). If the dog is not on a leash (I use a Flexi for the recall) then you can't guide him in step 2. That's what happened to you. He wasn't expecting the stim and so he was surprised.

I'll guess that this dog already knows the basic OB commands and that you're now trying to proof them with the Ecollar. I'd suggest that you not do this. As you've discovered, untoward things can happen that set your training back. Since we're all on a time budget I'd suggest that you follow my protocol to teach the recall even though the dog already knows the command. Doing so will only take a few minutes but will ensure that setbacks and mistakes don't occur. Just because a dog knows a command it's a mistake to think that he knows it with Estim. Think of it as introducing a new language to the dog and you'll be on the right track.

While it's possible that there's a mechanical or electrical problem with your Ecollar, I doubt that's the problem. It lies in your training.

Howard - I will agree with Lou that you jumped ahead of yourself in training, not that uncommon in e-collar work so don’t feel bad we have all done it. With that said I would do what Lou said but I will add a couple of points.

1- Look at this as a wake up call - its a sign that your screwed up. So with that said you ALWAYS back up your training steps when a problem comes up. In recall work this ALWAYS means back on a long line. Lou like a flexi - I like a long time - not big differences - just different.

2- The fact is the car is a big distraction for this dog - so you don’t start distraction work with a level 10 distraction. Start with a level 2 or 3 distraction. The dog is on a long line and someone tosses a ball and you call the dog. When it ignores you - ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS Say " NO COME" Then stimulate the dog.

If there is one thing I believe in it's that the dog needs to know that the shock came from the handler, not god, not the ground, not a toy or not from running to the car. The shock must come from the invisible leash that the handler has and this cannot be learned unless the dog is told NO when it does not mind. Remember the goal of our training is to teach a dog to mind a voice command - we want the dog to know that when we say NO it must mind or something is going to happen.

3- I am not a fan of continuous stimulation. Never have been. I would rather use the collar like a pop on the leash and that is done with the NICK button. Granted there are some extreme hard heads out there that will need continuous but not as many as one would think.

Many times the NICK needs to be at a higher level so stimulation than a dog would get as continuous stimulation. And if I NICK the dog and need to do it again I will give another NO command - remember we are training the dog to respect NO and to learn the NICK comes from WE.

So your goal should be to gradually increase the level of distraction with a recall from the car being the final step for this problem. Only you can determine how many steps there needs to be in this process.

One last point – if humidity were an issues with electric collars field trial retriever people would have been screwed 20 years ago.

But....when a dog does something that is life threatening, such as taking off after a car, it seems that the logical thing would be to give a loud "phooie" or "no" then stimulus followed by a repeat of the previous training action. For instance, if the dog was in a down-stay when he broke the law of not chasing cars it seems that the most important correction at the moment would be for doing something that he could get killed. Then repeat the down-stay or whatever training activity you were doing at the time. I don't see how this would be confusing to the dog.

Bear with me as I am just learning to use an e-collar so am just trying to use my logic on most of it!

Also, it seems to me that the dog getting a stimulus that is maybe a little to high for a situation that is life threatening or dangerous isn't the worst thing in the world. Makes a pretty good point right off the bat.

Lou And Ed, Yes, I screwed up. As hard as I tried not to. I was working my current partner who has been with me for 4 years. He has a couple minor OB issues that are a constant source of embarrasment for me. He is easy to work and handler sensitive but tough on the street.

One problem is that he is loose on the heel. He will constantly stay 2-3 feet away from me during off lead OB. He also circles me to finish the heel. My first dog would stay glued to my leg at all times during the OB. I contribute his shyness to a heavy handed Czech trainer from where the dog came. Is recall is great as well. I just wanted to clean him up. I have used the pinch in the past and it works, but once the lead is off he gets loose again. I trained him for a month on lead only with the pinch and thought I had it licked but he reverted back to the loose heel again.

During this whole training session I achieved every goal I set. The heal was tight and the finish was perfect. During this whole session a little voice in my head was telling me that I should have the dog on lead. I guess I should have followed my instincts.

Its a shame I screwed up a successfull training session because of a stupid mistake. BTW, I can believe what Ed says about the nick not being as hard a stim as the CONT when left at the same setting. I found this out the hard way on my arm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the honest replies gentlemen.

Howard