Hi All,
I've got a 15 week old male Malinois puppy. I train in French ring and he is my newest prospect. He is my first Mal and I've a question about his behaviour after a working session. I've got "building drive and focus" but so far I haven't been able to peak my dogs interest in prey drive to the point where he doesn't lose interest quickly with just a ball on a string. So I've attached the ball to a flirt pole and I work him this way.

Anyway, while working him he's snapping in the air when he misses and charging hard at the toy but if I try the "into arms" with him he will spit the toy immediately and try and bite me. Also, to finish a session with him I generally try and leave him without that last bite to build some frustration. When I try and change his lead over he will also bite me (complete with growling and snapping) when I hold his collar so I can clip the other lead on?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

After a few min. he is fine though and is back to his old loving self. I know that he's hyped up in prey drive so he may be a little short on clarity at that point but I'm wondering if I should correct him for this behaviour or just let him carry on.

The folks in my ring club have told me that he's a very serious dog and will need lots of socialization but I don't want to hamper any of his drive by correcting him at this age while he's "pumped up". He's completely confident and unafraid of any environment I've presented him with and he's always "ears back, tail wagging" and pulling hard on his lead to meet people so I don't think he's shy and other than while he's working he's generally very happy and playful.

Anyway, any hints would be great, thanks.

Grant

Grant,
I see a lot of Mal's get very possessive over items - it's possible that he thinks that the "into my arms" position is a prelude to you taking the item away.
I'd check this by just doing some gentle play with no items and then try an "into my arms". Let us know how he reacts there...

We do ringsport here, but don't do the into my arms thing at all. I don't know that it is necessary for what we do. also, high frustration dogs WILL make you pay for dragging them off the field without something in their mouths. I think that he has shown you that he doesn't need the drive building that not giving the last bite promotes. Before he gets big enough to get you good I would dump the in my arms thing, as it seems to be geared more for Schutzhund. I may be wrong about that, but I think you can skip it, and avoid getting nailed in the face.....which would be your fault.

Jeff, I use the Flinks "into my arms" method for training in American Street Ring on a dog with high aggression and drive and I haven't seen a problem with using it.
Just my opinion, however...

" I would dump the in my arms thing, as it seems to be geared more for Schutzhund "

I always thought it had 2 purposes.

1. Helps bond with the dog
2. Gives the dog something to do other then run around and waste energy after he has his ball,tug, or sleeve ect...( that is unless the dog needs to run or circle around )

Am I wrong?

-Jason

Grant,
Sounds like a rank issue. Your pup doesn't realize yet that those are your toys, and NOT his. He is spitting it out because he can't bite you with it in. He feels threatned by you around the toys. First you need to establish rank over him, and let him know he plays with those toys at your option, not his. That goes back to the wild, when the weaker dog goes around the food, and is not welcome, the more dominate dog runs them off, or will fight them. They are not allowed around the food until the dominate dogs feel like letting them around. Sounds to me your pup is demonstrating this, only he's the dog near the food, and your getting to close. IMO "in my arms" would be a good thing. You need to get across to him that your the pack leader, and then transfer that to "in my arms" where he can learn that he doesn't have to be worried about loosing the toy, or you being near the toy. Right now he has anxiety about you being around him and the toy, you need to calm that, and in your arms is one way to relax him.

Hey Will,

Thanks for responding. I tried what you said and played with him without a toy. We just tustled around a bit, chased each other in the yard etc. and I tried to take him into arms. He welcomed it no problem, he was a little mouthy on my arm but he does that all the time. There wasn't any growling or snapping, just tail wagging and trying to swallow my forearm as he stood/sat in my arms. So you may be right about the possessive thing. I actually haven't had much luck with getting him to out at all right from the start. He tends to hold on to the item a long time if I hold his lead and keep him from lying down to maul it, he'll just stand there with it in his mouth. In the past to get him to spit the toy I've had to trade for a different item but he'll never just give up what he's got. (except of course to attack me/decoy when we come up and grab it for some tug. I can play tug with him from the end of the flirt pole but if I or the decoy get too far up the pole (ie. hands on the tug, he spits and attacks the hand/arm).

Jeff,

I know what you're saying about the "into arms" exercise. My club has 10 members and there's only one other that practised this with his dog when he was a pup. I was doing it because of his level of "seriousness" as I wanted him to trust me and I figured while he's a pup, trust is a bit safer to build. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> As far as him not getting the last bite, he's absolutely loaded with defense and dominance but he's prey is a little soft. He's out of du Boscaille bloodlines and I'm told that their prey doesn't start to come forward until about 5 mos. or so from the breeder but I figured a little work now will pay dividends later... (plus I'm simply too excited to get this guy going... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, thanks guys for the input and I look forward to Will's response with my answer for the playing with out the item thing.

Grant

O.K. So this method is flinks method, right? I don't think he is the Malinois guy to go to. Say what you want but some Schutzhund people need all the bonding help they can get with their over-bearing training methods. I might get hammered for this, but why go there if you don't have to? Doesn't flinks also like to flank, as well as choke the snot out of a dog? It is something I have heard more than once that he is hard on a dog. Do I care? No. But, if your dog is seeing you over the top of him as scary, a threat, whatever, why go there when there is SO much else to deal with. This is a Mal that has a temper if I remember correctly from previous posts. And I can't see "into the arms" being oh so overwhelmingly necessary. If it works for you guys fine. I have never used it once in my entire life and don't have weird issues with any of my dogs. I like the possesiveness, and will not do anything to squash it at 15 weeks.

Will, I have a feeling from your other posts that with the amount of experience, and presence you have that the dogs probably gonna pick a fight with someone other than you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Besides, he's the one thats gonna get nailed in the face. the dog is gonna do it out of drive/frustration/possesiveness and not out of spite or anger, then he is gonna correct the crap out of the dog, which will squash or create more problems. Or you could just avoid the whole thing by eliminateing an exercise that was created for a different sport with different dogs.

Pick your battles I always say! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I can see where it might help the dog with possesion problems realize you are not gonna take it away, but look at your body language. you are over the dog and that is showing dominance. So on the one hand you are not taking things away, but you are basically dominateing the dog.

As far as going in circles, we don't do that either. We encourage the puppies and young dogs to bring the bite item back to the decoy. The only running they do is off the field with the toy in his mouth.

I am not saying don't do flinks stuff, but in ring, with the particular puppy, why deal with these problems when it isn't something you have to do?

I can play tug with him from the end of the flirt pole but if I or the decoy get too far up the pole (ie. hands on the tug, he spits and attacks the hand/arm).

This is easy to deal with. If he tries to bite the decoy, then the decoy needs to be less frontal (turn sideways) and if he lets go to bite the decoy, the decoy gets out of there and the game is over. He goes back in the crate. They learn real quick that this sucks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />