I just bought an E-collar and was interested to now which method of training do you guys find it most useful. (Long time low stimulation or short time high stimulation). I was not really satisfied with the dvd that came with the e-collar, that tells you how to train your dog. I understand there is a new dvd coming out soon from Ed, and would be interested to know if you show both methods of training with the e-collar. I personally prefer short time high stimulation (not sure if this is the right wording) but I could be wrong. Any advice appreciated.

My new DVD does not show short term high stimulation. This is abusive, ignorant, old school training and I am not prepared to do this to a dog just to DEMO the negative effects for a training DVD. I like dogs too much to abuse them.

You are on this board to learn something. Take it for what its worth - you just learned a very valuable bit of advise and you did not have to pay for it.

If you want to learn the correct way to train with a remote collar get the DVD - with luck it will be out next week.

I would definately wait on the E-collar thing based on what you posted. In general, buying gadgets and gears when you are new to dog training is not the way to go. They are not a magic bullet. I have trained many dogs and never used an E-collar once during the process. I think that they are an excellent tool for polishing up a dog that is "finished".
I will probably be using an E-collar on my Mal here in the future to get rid of his "Ludo loops" problem. I figure that he uses this running about to relieve stress and/or it just feels good to be blasting about. I plan on using a constant low level of stim to interrupt this little joyus outbreak that occurs, hopefully making it stupid, and it will go away. I am months from trying this though. He has a good understanding of all the ring three execises, except the object find. (never tried it)

Jeff - I am sorry I can’t agree with your view of a remote trainer (e-collar). These training tools can do so much more than polishing a trained dog. The fact is that when you learn to use low level stem you can use it to mold your dog and curb bad habits. You can do with without making a ROBOT OUT OF HIM and you can do it without effecting his temperament and drive.

The training concepts are easy to understand and follow.

Probably the most common way that Ecollars are used in the US is as Jeff mentions, to polish behaviors that have been trained with conventional methods. Those folks use it as an "invisible leash" usually nicking the dog with the stim when he disobeys a known command. There's nothing wrong with that and you can achieve much success using the tool that way.

But it is limiting. It requires that you use some other tool, usually leash and correction collar to first train a behavior. This is usually pretty easy to do when the dog is on leash, but as soon as the leash comes off, the dog's behavior weakens. Using just about any tool, other than an Ecollar is more time consuming than teaching that same behavior with the Ecollar. AND, most importantly, the dog isn't taught how to shut off the stim. He's merely corrected by the nick to get him to perform.

When the behavior is taught with an Ecollar the dog becomes "Ecollar literate." That means that he knows that it's his behavior that makes the stim start (when the command is given) and most importantly, he learns how to make it stop (when the behavior is complete.). I find that teaching new behaviors with the Ecollar makes getting to the proofing stage much quicker.

I've also found that for new dog handlers the concepts and the mechanics are easier to learn. It sometimes takes new handlers a year to learn to deliver a proper correction (I've seen handlers with 8-10 years in who still don't do it properly) but it only takes a few seconds to learn to press a button. Of course part of the trick is learning to press the button at the right time.

Quote:But it is limiting. It requires that you use some other tool, usually leash and correction collar to first train a behavior. This is usually pretty easy to do when the dog is on leash, but as soon as the leash comes off, the dog's behavior weakens.

I have been using marker training with fairly good sucess. I may have used a choke to correct him, like 21 times ever.
I started him with out a collar and leash, and only need it for the heel, where he wants to be in front of me. In all fairness we have just started ob for bites, even then I haven't had to correct him much. If I limit the bites he gets for correct behavior, there is little need for a correction. If I go over this number, he has gotten a correction. But thats because he gets so pumped up at this point he isn't thinking. I don't give him a big correction, it is my fault to leave him out there to long.

O.k., So heres my thing with e-collars and new handlers. This is avoidance training right? do what I ask or it's gonna be uncomfortable. That is the bottom line.

A new handler is probably gonna blow it with an e-collar. for example, Oh he is just ignoreing me. I will just move the little dial up more. I think that until they learn what the dog is actually doing that they should be limited to a leash and collar. At least that way they have to administer the correction, not push a button. A little more personal. Less of the "I just turn this dial and push."

Quote:Of course part of the trick is learning to press the button at the right time.


A fair generalization is that most people want faster results. More is better. This is why I feel they should try marker training. At least when your wrong it is not so horrible. I have seen good trainers blow it with an e-collar.

Having said all this I am not against the e-collar in the hands of someone who has good timing. I have seen these people in the field trial work and they are awesome. I do have a dog who I think due to his lack of willingness, I wouldn't mind useing as a test dog for training everything with an e-collar.

Lastly, I think that whenn you look at what trial labs are becoming, they are being bred for the e-collar. I don't want this to happen to other breeds.

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O.k., So heres my thing with e-collars and new handlers. This is avoidance training right? do what I ask or it's gonna be uncomfortable. That is the bottom line.

This isn't avoidance training, it's escape training. The dog is stimmed, guided into the correct behavior and then the pressure is relieved. The dog learns obeying the command, brings comfort. He's escaping the stim by performing the movement. Avoidance training doesn't occur until the proofing stage of training.

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A new handler is probably gonna blow it with an e-collar. for example, Oh he is just ignoreing me. I will just move the little dial up more.

The dog isn't given the opportunity to "ignore" the handler. He's on leash and is guided into the proper behavior.

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I think that until they learn what the dog is actually doing that they should be limited to a leash and collar.

I probably would too if training was done as you describe it. But it's not. You have several misconceptions as to how teaching with an Ecollar is actually accomplished. I'd suggest that you read my articles before making such assumptions.

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At least that way they have to administer the correction, not push a button.

At the teaching phase of training, there's no correction given, unless you're using the word differently from the way that I do, meaning to correct an improper behavior.

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A little more personal. Less of the "I just turn this dial and push."

Why do you think that "a little more personal" is better? Doing it my way the dog learns that it's his behavior that makes the stim start and stop. The way you describe he knows exactly where the correction comes from. I'd prefer that he think he's responsible for it.

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I have seen good trainers blow it with an e-collar.

Then I wouldn't cal them "good trainers." They may be excellent with conventional tools, but if they're "blow(ing) it with an Ecollar" they're not good Ecollar trainers. Being good with leash and correction collar does not make one good with an Ecollar. And I've seen "good trainers blow it" with all sorts of tools, including clickers and treats.

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Lastly, I think that whenn you look at what trial labs are becoming, they are being bred for the e-collar. I don't want this to happen to other breeds.

Most competitions are requiring dogs with higher energy levels and higher levels of drives if you want to compete at a serious level. Conventional tools are showing to be harder to use to gain and maintain control.

You are thinking of avoidance as it is used in bitework. It is avoidance. Escape training is avoidance training. Different words, same basic meaning.

New handlers are just that, new handlers. They have their gadget and it ought to work in a few weeks dangit! They will mess up, they will teach the dog when the collar is on or off, and they will ask the dog to do something without a leash to guide, because it has been 3 weeks and the dog ought to do it by now.

Quote:Why do you think that "a little more personal" is better? Doing it my way the dog learns that it's his behavior that makes the stim start and stop. The way you describe he knows exactly where the correction comes from. I'd prefer that he think he's responsible for it.

So they don't get to carried away, like new handlers do. If all you have to do is push a button, who cares shock the snot out of them. And quite frankly, I have trained with some really good trainers in my life. If the e-collar was such a phenominal tool why are they not using it. Why is it that I have not used it for very much? Maybe it's because I can train a dog as well or better than you without "escape training" my dog. Sure it takes longer, but I have the time. I also really like training.

I have noticed the trend with the labs that are being bred are the type that handle the e-collar training quite well. I have also notice that a lot of dogs are starting to lose the willingness to please. Now I know this can come into contention because of differences of what willingness is. I want a dog that would do something just for praise. to do everything just for praise. Not that I would train like that, but it is what I want, and my definition of willingness. Try that with labs that have been bred for the e-collar. whoooooo that'll take you back a bit. Man they don't care or notice too much.

I have read your articles. I don't have this huge problem with the e-collar like you think, I just know what new handlers are like, and know them all too well! The newbies that get into gears and gadgets pretty much have the same hurry up attitude. I started training and heard about the e-collar, saw a dog trained with the e-collar and said to myself so what. my dog does better than that. Never occured to me to get one at that time. Now I have seen what they can do, I have seen dogs that were trained with these collars, and got pumped from the stim, and the excersize got to be a big mess. I have seen more disasters than good over the years trust me, they were not all bad trainers.

Again, the basic attitude of new handlers who want to use e-collars to train are in a hurry and love gadgets.