Hi - I'd appreciate a bit of advice regarding the Flinks motivational retrieve method. I can't work out which method I should use with my dog. In the video, its said that the ball-on-a-string method is the best for clear headed dogs and the tug, for dogs that like to fight with the handler.
In order to 'make the deal', the dog must prefer the ball to the dumbbell.

Well, mine doesn't seem to fit into either category! She is mad for the ball on a string, likes to pull/fight with a tug, but she DOESN"T come up to me and push the tug at me, she is possessive and wants to have it, like the dog in the video. So I'm thinking, lets do the first method then...

When I ask her which she prefers, she prefers the dumbbell. I was really surprised as the dog is crazy for the ball. I should add I didn't put any drive into the dumbbell. I tried putting the dumbell away, the dog never sees it, and make lots of drive to the ball - keep the ball in sight, bring out the dumbbell - she prefers the dumbbell!!!

As I understand it, the ball-on-a-string method won't work if she has no reason to make the deal - she prefers the dumbbell to the ball.

HOWEVER - she is not a dog that will push at me to fight with her. She will come to me with a prey item and I'm working on a calm sit in front using the ball, running etc as shown in the video. She is exactly like the bitch in the video that runs out to get the tug, runs half way back then drops it and is reluctant to fetch it right in because she wants to keep it - she looks EXACTLY like her, head down, tail wagging. Bernhard says something like 'you see, she wants to keep it', and that this type of dog should be taught using method 1, ball on a string.

Any thoughts where to go? At the moment I'm wondering if I should just go with the 'tug' method but using the DB as she loves it! And just work on the calm sit in front as a separate exercise.

Thanks in advance. ps I tried a search but couldn't find this addressed previously - sorry in advance if this is so....Also sorry its such a long one <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Here is something to try instead. Teach the dog to hold an object first. Use a small 8" length of 1" pvc. Use markers for holding calmly starting with 1/2 second and progress until the dog is holding even if you are pulling a bit.

When the dog can hold it while sitting in front of you for 3-4 minutes nice and calm and holds well if you pull on it a bit, put it on the floor say take it or whatever your command is. The dog should pick it up and sit in front of you, due to all your previous work. If not, and the dog just picks it up, mark that. It should be right in front of you, no distance.

Once that is going well, say take it, and step back drawing the dog in. mark and reward. Then two, four, ect.

When the dog is doing this well in the house, go in the back yard and start over. It should go pretty quick.

Put a long line on your dog, put her in heel position, stay, and toss the object a few feet in front. say take it, when the dog gets the object, take a small step forward and back to draw the dog in. Progress until you get some distance.

When you go to the dumbell, start short and build again.

Thanks Jeff, I appreciate your advice. Makes sense. This dog is not 100% clear in the head and will I think start mouthing the second she thinks I'm going to take the object/prey whatever away from her - so I need to really lay a good foundation of calm sit in front, no pressure. Is there an advantage to using an object to start with, as she will happily hold the dumbbell, pick it up cleanly, and will sit in front calmly for maybe 1 second before I run with her...

...maybe if she does start chewing it, it would be better if she chewed a PVC pipe than the DB? ie lay the foundations with an object and get any problems fixed before progressing to the DB?

Thanks in advance <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

This dog is not 100% clear in the head

Sarah,
What exactly does this mean?

I have some ideas from reading your initial post...could be helpful, could be totally off.

How did you train for the dumbell? My hunch is that she has a preference for it, as it may have a better history of reinforcement. I know, for me, when I think a dog may not like something, I reinforce the heck out of it.

The ball on a string is something that gets "taken away" all too often. The dumbell may get positively reinforced more.

Just something to think about a bit....look at the reinforcement history of each item.

Also, in an effort to stick with training during "planned training time", there is often the urge to go get the ball from the dog, meet it half way, get sucked into a game of keep-away. Pay attention to whether or not you are doing these things when playing with the ball on a string. Keep-away is one of the best games in the world in the mind of a dog, and a tough thing to extinguish if you get in the habit of participating too often. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tracy

Sarah,

Do you use Bernhard's methods for the rest of your Obedience?

-Jason

Hi Tracy,

'not clear in the head' - I'm using a phrase from the video here. By this I mean she is wild with prey drive and has occasionally whined and yapped with stress during a focus exercise, ie make drive for the ball, then sitz, and focus....she has fantastic focus but if this is at the begining of a session she has sometimes become a little vocal and I'm interpreting this as turned on nerves.(Am I right?)

My response to this has been to keep the initial focuses short, until 2-3 reps, and then build up the time...she will sitz and focus for approx 30 seconds now (for the ball).

For food, she will sitz at heel and give me eyes for 1min, calm no vocalising etc.

She is a 9month old GSD.

She has plenty of prey drive and loves to bite a tug, with a deep, full grip - when I play with her. With a helper, she still is full of prey and will bark and go for the tug/sleeve, but she has just shown a few slight signs of weak nerves - she is not biting as deeply as she does at home, and her eyes are all over the place looking behind her for me.

The helper explained to me she doesn't have 100% solid nerves, and that at home she is not under pressure, the nerves are showing slightly when away from home.

Don't get me wrong, she is not a bag of nerves, but I appreciate she is not solid either. However she is only 9months old....



Regarding the ball/DB issue. I have hardly done any retrieve/DB work, as I was hoping to use the Flinks methods with her. The very first time she ever saw a DB was when I tried to get her to make the deal for the ball-on-a-string - I had watched the video and THOUGHT she would be the first type of dog - and she threw me completely by telling me she wanted the DB. Foolishly I persisted with the routine and she went out, picked up the DB from about 2 feet away, fetched it back to me (with a 'hier') - and then seemed to hesitate and falter just before sitting. I got the impression she wanted to keep the DB. She dropped the DB and danced around me, inviting me to get the ball out again....

I am well aware of the keep-away situation having made a very nice job of putting it into my first dog, many years ago now. This dog would play keep away in a split second if I ever took a step towards her while she has the toy/prey. I am spending a lot of time running her and into-my-arms to try to get her comfortable with being close to me whilst she has the prey/toy. I have to admit you're right though, I DO still tend to be thinking 'I want the ball back now, lets do some OB' <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


Hi Jason,

I only know the Flinks method for the retrieve, I'm waiting with baited breath for the Heeling video to come out.

So far, my OB is a work in progress - for that, read almost nothing is done!! I'm concentrating on the foundation stuff in the Drive,Focus and Grip and Preparing your Dog for the Helper DVDs. I use the ball on a string as a motivator/reward, and I just started this week using food for heeling as she is too hectic with the ball.

I think I might have gone a bit too fast and not put enough time into teaching her to focus, before starting heeling <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Thanks for your input and sorry again for such a long post.

I think the pvc is better, it is a bit harder than wood, and they have to grip it harder later in the training to hold it. It is easier to deal with overall. fits right in your pocket.
Also in the beginning stages you hold it throughout the exercize.

Thanks Jeff - I appreciate it.

A friend of mine uses lengths of old garden hose.
T

Which is chewy and fun. Not appropriate for what we are doing. Try to minimize opportunity for chewing. Hose can be great to chew on, just ask my puppy Turk, the little weasel.