I'm a few days into starting a raw feeding program. I did some internet research after hearing a presentation by a raw feeder at the Tibetan Mastiff Breeders Invitational in Chesapeake, VA a few weeks ago. I joined a couple of Yahoo groups as well. I started out with chicken leg quarters and intend to add other varieties of meat and bones later.

Universally, I have heard and read that the canine digestive system has no problem digesting bones from raw food. Last night I was out walking the dogs when my female TM relieved herself. Taking out my trusty plastic newspaper, I picked up the feces like a good suburban neighbor. I had heard that the stool would be more compact and harder than one sees with a kibble-fed dog. It was, but one chunk was considerably harder than I expected. It turned out to be a small hunk of bone, and was hard as a rock. It was small enough for her to pass (obviously <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />, but it did get me to thinking.

Has anyone else on this board had a similar experience? What is the likelihood of her swallowing and not passing a larger chunk of bone? Could this cause some kind of impaction in her intestines? Am I overthinking this, or is there a legitimate cause for concern here? The conventional wisdom in raw feeding groups and websites is that bone will be crushed small enough to be swallowable and digestible. Is that really correct?

That should read "trusty plastic newspaper BAG."

first of all, chicken legs wouldn't be my first choice for the food to use to switch to raw. even if they are fryer legs (six weeks old) the legs are tougher to break down than necks, backs, or wings.

i'd start him on necks that have had the fat and skin removed first, and work your way up to legs later. it can take some dogs a while to start producing strong enough stomach acid to handle chicken leg bones.

bear also in mind that any food can be dangerous. dogs have died inhaling kibble. bones can cause problems, but usually they don't. it's all what you are comfortable with. i feel the health benefits outweigh the minimal risks many times over. most people worry too much about their dogs' ability to digest bones.

so switch to necks, backs, or wings, then try adding in other non-weight bearing bones gradually. don't forget veggies and organ meats, which help keep things moving through the GI tract.

after the dog is well established with raw feeding, and you aren't having any problems, then think about adding legs, but only from very young birds.

i would not worry about shards of bone in the stool. that is normal, especially for beginning raw feeders.

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Has anyone else on this board had a similar experience?

Brian,
Take a deep breath and don't panic. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Since your dog just started the raw diet, it may take a little while before the bones start vanishing. Even then, occassionally I still see chunks of bone particle in my dogs' stools.

Honestly, don't get to worrying. If you don't notice that this diminishes over the next week or so, you may want to switch to softer type bone for a bit (chicken backs, necks or wings) while your dog starts churning out the enzymes to digest the bone thoroughly.

I think most of us raw-feeders can relate to your concern, as we all made the switch at some point. It was a good three months until I stopped noticing every chew, crunch, stool formation, you name it...as I thought I'd surely be the first person to kill my dog with the raw diet. LOL It's been four years now, two puppies (one now nearly four) and a senior citizen, and all are healthy and happy.

T

Bryan,
I have 2 Goldens and a Border Collie. When I first started them on raw, I gave them chicken wings. The male Golden and BC did just fine, the female Golden threw up a big chunk of bone/joint, and a 2" piece of bone. Yes, I panicked too. After posting my question on a few boards, I took the advice given and tried again with chicken necks, then added chicken backs after 2-3 wks. They have all been fine since and have not thrown up or choaked on anything. All dogs are different. You might want to try something smaller with your female until she gets the hang of it.

And as I am typing, I see my female Golden out back chewing on the arm of an Adirondack chair. Sure! She's can't handle chicken wings but lawn furniture...NO PROBLEM! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

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You might want to try something smaller with your female until she gets the hang of it.

Actually, if lack of chewing is a problem, I think it is best to go bigger, rather than smaller. That way, the dog HAS to chew.

T

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Actually, if lack of chewing is a problem, I think it is best to go bigger, rather than smaller. That way, the dog HAS to chew.

T

I held the necks and backs the first few times and MADE them grind them with their back teeth and chew them up. Regardless of what I feed them, I don't leave my dogs unattended when they eat because they could choke on any sized bone - big or small.

I'm sure all raw feeders have panicked when starting. I did too. You can also add apple cider vinegar to the food to aid in the digestion of bone. This helps increase the acid in the gut. I add a tablespoon or 2 in each meal. ACV is great for many things in the digestive tract but can also be used for rinsing after a bath and for use on hot spots.
I digress... I agree with other posts... try for smaller the softer bone products and organ meats. I try to stay away completely from chicken/turkey legs. When I hear a hard cracking sound when they crunch the bones that indicates to me splinters. Lots of people do feed them and have no problem. Use COMMON SENSE and you'll be ok.
Donna

Okay, first of all, thanks for the responses. They have been helpful in understanding the introduction process. It looks like the undigested bone segment was an anomaly. The dogs are fine. In particular, the TM bitch's bowels were just fine as of last night. My TM dog was a little constipated (had a bowel movement, but then strained for a while with no additional stool). I'll wait to see how things are tonight.

Clearly, though, my definition of "panic" is different from a lot of folks. I asked some questions, and as I read them again, I didn't see a lot of emotion there. But perhaps others read between the lines to find something I didn't intend to put there. I thank you for your concern, but I'm not in a panicked state.

Just to fill in the rest of the story, I am introducing raw feeding to three dogs -- two Tibetan mastiffs and a Jack Russell terrier. The question pertained only to the TM bitch. The other two (both male, the Jack has been neutered) have had no problems at all (except as noted above).

As I think about it, a primitive breed like a TM is more likely to adapt quickly to a raw diet, since it is far fewer generations removed from natural feeding than most breeds. (I can trace both TM's pedigrees ten generations back to Tibet and Nepal, where, I am confident, Purina did not have an outlet for kibble, and the Jack Russell kills and eats squirrels when he can, so I wasn't particularly concerned about him, either.) TM's have some very tough digestive (and other) systems, so my concern was essentially clinical. I'm sorry I didn't convey that better.

The stomach acid/enzyme adaptation comments were interesting; I guess that I assumed without even thinking about it that acid & enzyme levels would be the same regardless of the food that was eaten. I knew that anticipation of eating causes the digestive tract to prepare to receive food, but I had never heard that the stomach and/or intestinal tract react to different foods by producing more of particular enzymes to deal with them.

Donna, do you just pour apple cider vinegar over the raw parts you are feeding? I can't imagine my dogs would find that particularly appetizing. Maybe they would eat the raw food despite the presence of vinegar, but it would probably be a tough sell. But, here's my question: It seems to me that since vinegar is a fairly weak solution of a fairly weak (acetic, I think) acid, it wouldn't really add much to the hydrochloric acid already in the dog's stomach unless there was a problem with the naturally-occurring HCl levels. I'd like to know a little more about your experience with that, and how you came to start using vinegar for this purpose. Did you do it as a response to a particular problem? Was it based on some kind of generalized advice from someone else? How long have you done it? Do you use ACV daily, or just occasionally? What differences do you find if you stop using it?

I should have pointed out that we have been feeding wing parts to them for quite some time on an occasional basis, so it was not as if the dogs were suddenly confronted with a food item that they had never experienced before. We just made the switch to a totally raw a few days ago. I'm going to be continuing to feed what I have; it seems to be going fine. I'll probably start adding some liver and red meat in the coming weeks.

Thanks again.

Bryan