Bea is now nine months old. She comes from a long line of champions. I recently had her assessed by a reputable trainer for protection and she failed the test. It is either she does not have the drive or she is still immature. Am I right?

The breeder told me to be patient. He said that the line of my dog is slow maturing. The breeder said to expect the drive to come out around 16 months old. The breeder is very reputable.

I want to beginning obedience training for my dog. But the trainer said that the dog should be started with protection training first and obedience training next.Is the trainer right?

The breeder also said that if I intend to breed my dog it is best that she does not undergo protection training. Is the breeder right?

Originally posted by mackie:
Bea is now nine months old. She comes from a long line of champions. I recently had her assessed by a reputable trainer for protection and she failed the test. It is either she does not have the drive or she is still immature. Am I right?

***If the trainer knows what s/he is doing, they should be able to see whether the dog has the drive or not, regardless of age. When you say 'a long line of champions', do you mean AKC CH? AKC Championships have little to do with the character of the dog and everything to do with its looks.

The breeder told me to be patient. He said that the line of my dog is slow maturing. The breeder said to expect the drive to come out around 16 months old. The breeder is very reputable.

***There are a number of different drives; prey, defense, hunt, play....some of these should be evident in a nine month old, specifically prey, play, hunt. Hopefully you're not seeing much, if any, defense. It kind of sounds like the breeder's trying to cover his @$$ a little by saying that the dog is slow maturing. Sometimes that is the case, but the prey, play and hunt should be there, even at a young age.

I want to beginning obedience training for my dog. But the trainer said that the dog should be started with protection training first and obedience training next.Is the trainer right?

***No. Its OK to do some prey promotion and tug work with a young dog, but it's even more important to start OB at this time. The dog can learn a lot when it young. Shape the sit, down, come, heel at this time and you'll have fewer problems down the road.

The breeder also said that if I intend to breed my dog it is best that she does not undergo protection training. Is the breeder right? ****NO.
E mail me privately about the trainer and the breeder, if you don't want to put their names on the board.

Sounds to me like you need to find a new trainer !

Although I have to say, that sometimes (not all the time) drive in the bull breeds doesn't show to it's full extent until they are 8-12 mths old...

It is a GSD. I see in your previous posts that you have been doing prey drive development with this dog all along... what was this "trainer" looking to see?

Mackie is overseas somewhere, so I feel safe to say it isn't an American Show Shepherd...

So far as what the breeder ment about not protection training a bitch you might breed; did she say why?

Breeding of working lines by civilians here in the Philippines is fairly recent-five years. Most working lines before were with the military or police.

The assessment that non protection trained dog give better puppies suitable for protection come from breeders that have limited breeding experience of working lines here in the Philippines. They noticed that females dogs that win titles do not produce puppies ideal for protection dogs. And females that have no training but from an excellent line generally produces good puppies.

The breeder told me to be patient. He said that the line of my dog is slow maturing. The breeder said to expect the drive to come out around 16 months old. The breeder is very reputable.
I just went through this with two Mal pups. I will NEVER wait for a slow maturing pup again. Life is to short. If the pup doesn't chew the pants off your leg, move on. I spent a year trying to work with two pups with little to no prey drive. The breeder said the same thing to me. I think it's a bunch of crap. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> If my two previous pups wake up one day and become awesome dogs than God love 'em and good luck to the present owners.
Now I own two Mals that have such incredible drive it's amazing and a joy to work with. Maybe I needed to suffer through the first two pups to REALLY appreciate true working dog character. That's it from me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Understand your frustration, Ringsport. While there is some merit to the 'slow maturing' deal with mals and GSD's, I'll take the priannahs right out of the box anyday. However, there is a great temptation to move the quick ones along ahead of their maturity level. Been there! We have one in our group that we were just about to give up on, and in the span of less than a week...BAM...the Mall was open and folks were shopping!

All things being equal though, I'd much rather be climbing trash cans to get away from the little monsters than run around like an idiot with a sack in my hand and have the dog show more interest in his front paws.

Never again!!! So how is your mini-Paco coming along anyhow? Have any unscathed flesh left? (lol)
Scott W

I dont think you have to waite for a dog to get drive,drive is something that can be developed although the end result is different in different dogs.I would start developing prey drive now by doing things like back tieing the dog and playing ball on the wall and sack on a rope, remember these toys only come out when your playing the game. I say to develop prey drive and obed. the same time in a pup. Its easier to train obed. in a pup than to retrain one that has trained itself and is set in its ways on what it thinks is acceptable behavior. I would say start training basic obed. in your pup and remember to show lots of enthusiasm to build the excitement in the dog so it understands this is how it is whenever we interact, rather it be prey develop. or obed. Ofcourse you do have to waite for maturity before doing any defense work. Dont just leave it to chance to see if you have a good dog or not take matters into your own hands and try to bring your dog up to whatever its potenetial is.All dogs potentials vary but still do what you can.

Mackie said: "I want to beginning obedience training for my dog. But the trainer said that the dog should be started with protection training first and obedience training next.Is the trainer right?

The breeder also said that if I intend to breed my dog it is best that she does not undergo protection training. Is the breeder right?"

Ahem! Since everyone else is afraid to say it I will. This trainer and this breeder are MORONS!! If I had the power to close this thread I would...in a heartbeat that is.

M_Oliver

If you're goal is sport you should not be selecting pup's or young dog's with very little or no prey drive. It take's very,very little time to tell if a pup or young dog has prey drive. As far as drive's suddenly appearing at a much later date(except for defense), i don't agree. You should see prey,food,and hunt drive's at a young age. Prey drive is genetic, you can't just make it appear one day. If they show a little prey you can build upon that but you still may be limited depending on the genetic potential. If you like to drive fast,you don't go to your local autodealer and ask for a 4-cylinder that gets 35mpg. So to select a puppy or young dog for sportwork with little to no prey drive is senseless. How do you develop good foundation bitework in a young dog with no prey drive? I don't think you can.