I'm wondering about the advisability of using multiple training devices on my 7mo GSD Pogo. I use a prong collar for basic obedience work (works great !), and I recently purchased an e-collar to use as a corrective device when misbehaving around the house. Pogo tends to be quite the gentleman when I'm physically present, and less so when I'm not. Next week I'll complete the collar conditioning phase, and after watching the Leerburg e-collar for pets DVD, I'm wondering if this falls within recommended usage. In particular, Ed states that the dog should understand the correction is coming from the trainer; but I'm looking to use the e-collar only to correct for misbehavior (no aggression, just the usual puppy chase/chew stunts) around the house, particularly when I'm out of the room, and Pogo decides to test boundaries with the rest of the family. My thinking was that it would allow me to ask the family to exclaim a loud "no" when Pogo crosses the line, and that I could reinforce from wherever I am in the house with a "nick". Pogo is a quick learner, and my goal is that he quickly comes to understand that misbehavior has consequences even if the "alpha" isn't in the room. My intention would be to continue using a lead and prong collar for basic obedience exercises. All comments/suggestions welcome !

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but I'm looking to use the e-collar only to correct for misbehavior (no aggression, just the usual puppy chase/chew stunts) around the house, particularly when I'm out of the room, and Pogo decides to test boundaries with the rest of the family. My thinking was that it would allow me to ask the family to exclaim a loud "no" when Pogo crosses the line, and that I could reinforce from wherever I am in the house with a "nick".

This is not a good idea, your timing for corrections will be off which may cause fear in your pup. He may or may not correlate the correction with his action, or may associate the correction with another behavior completely. At 7 mos I would stick to crating him when you can't supervise directly, if you never let him develop bad habits there are none to break.

Thanks for your comment. I was remiss in not explaining that I was referring to setting up a "training scenario" with the family, I was not looking to use the e-collar as a substitute for proper supervision. In such a scenario, I would leave the room, but monitor his behavior through the family response. My finger would effectively be "on the button" during these periods to ensure the stimulation is received coincident with the infraction. Your points are well taken however, if I'm not in the room, I can't really verify the infraction and "nick" coincide. This may not be very fair after all.

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my goal is that he quickly comes to understand that misbehavior has consequences even if the "alpha" isn't in the room.

Mike,
What are the consequences for Pogo's *good* behavior?
T

Another good point. We are pretty proactive in ensuring there's plenty of praise for good behavior. The family is likewise attuned to the praise element, but finds the opportunity to lavish same to be more limited. While it could be argued that Pogo isn't the only one needing stimulation; "nicking" the family to be more consistent is considered bad form. (I'm kidding of course)

Mike, the problem with your thinking is, What are you going to do to the dog if he takes the correction out on your kid? This is a possibility. We don't know your dog or his temperament, but some dogs can percieve the collar correction as coming from someone or something in their immediate vicinity. Very dangerous thing to try.

Mike,
I know there are people who feel that praise is enough, but if you look around to the most successful dog trainers in any venue, be it pet, sport, agility, protection, obedience, herding, etc.....you'll find that they use a lot more heavy-duty reinforcers. Toys, food, real-world rewards (ie: being allowed outside after performing a sit with eye contact).

These people still use a lot of praise also, but the praise is generally a predictor of something even better. "Sit"...."good dog"....cookie. After a lot of this, "good dog" can take on reinforcing qualitites of its own, but still must be paired sporadically with a higher-value reinforcer.

When one uses primarily compulsion, "good dog" simply comes to mean "phew...I'm not gonna get corrected!". The dog is operating from a different set of emotional rules.

I'm a big believer that we should worry less about teaching the dog what NOT to do, until we teach it what it SHOULD do. If the dog chews the leg of the coffee table, for example, calmly grab a toy and say "off...good boy" and give it the toy instead. This is a much happier existence for all, and actually trains your dog what TO do. You might find that your family gets in on the act a little more too, once they know how to positively channel the puppies "misbehaviors" into more constructive activities.

T

I also would NOT use the e-collar for the way you are considering. Biggest reason being that you will then ASSURE you can never use it to TRAIN your dog and as a learning device. Once you use it a punishment for behavior, then that's what it is. And you can't then go back and have it for the wonderful POSITIVE training method to get a happy and reliable 'come' and various other obedience commands.

I've found that alot of people who are in the mind set of what they believe is 'traditional' training (that's how I did it when I used to have a dog) unintentionally end up concentrating on the NEGATIVES of training with the contant use of corrections. For instance immediately thinking of training something by setting up the dog, on purpose to FAIL so you can then SLAM INTO THEM with the 'bad dog'.

And that's a mindset that can be changed (and not saying maybe it is a good method once and a while). But why not instead have you dog learn to LOVE to listen, LOVE to learn, and LOVE to do the right thing.

Particularly with a puppy, and that is what your dog is. A puppy. I know I would much rather use baby gates and closed doors to keep the pup in the room for me so I can keep a constant eye on them. Is it better to e-collar a correction for them grabbing your best shoe? Or better to keep all temptations out of the room and only give them dog toys as something easy to grab in the room?

Is it better to put a roast beef in the trash and e-collar them when they go over to knock it over? Or keep them out of the kitchen except when you are right there to give them a 'leave it' command AND THEN reward them with a game of tug or a treat AWAY FROM THE TRASH when they listen?

Better to leave them loose so they can wander the house or tie them to you on a long leash so they are always with you to learn by example, with EXCELLENT timing and constant observation of behaviors?

Additionally, I've found that alot of my young dogs misbehavior is due to and excess of energy on their part. And even though I may THINK I've been giving them alot, their behaviors can tell me different. A well exercised pup is much more likely to listen, learn, and not get into trouble around the house. So I'd rather take the time to go for the miles and miles of walking, or the drive to the trainer for the socialization and training, then spend the day irritated and angry and constantly having to correct my puppy.

I LOVE THE E-COLLAR, but not as you are going to use it. And it's easy to screw up the temperament of your pup FOREVER if you don't use it properly. http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/obed.htm#elec has some good articles.